Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Withdrawing citizenship
Quote | Reply
We have village idiot #1, child isis bride and our government decided to withdraw her citizenship

So, I don't care if she came back and spent 40 years in jail, the remainder of her life, or if it were permissable she was executed following due process but I am not sure that we should have taken away her citizenship

I don't want her back, I don't want to pay for it, but as liabilities go, the UK is better placed to manage her than making her, her children and her associates stateless

Should we have made her stateless or should we have dealt with it
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
She has Bangladeshi citizenship still. You can't make soneone stateless
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Actions have consequences. I don't have any issue with stripping away ones citizenship for running out to join the likes of ISIS. It'll certainly be less expensive than pursuing legal actions against her.

--------------------------
The secret of a long life is you try not to shorten it.
-Nobody
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wish these people would be tried under Islamic law. That's what they want to impose on the rest of us.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [cerveloguy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
cerveloguy wrote:
I wish these people would be tried under Islamic law. That's what they want to impose on the rest of us.

So they'd be found not guilty?
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
I wish these people would be tried under Islamic law. That's what they want to impose on the rest of us.


So they'd be found not guilty?

Not if their captors are the ones applying the law.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So, I don't care if she came back and spent 40 years in jail, the remainder of her life,

I don't want her back, I don't want to pay for it,
——-
This does not make sense.


_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
I wish these people would be tried under Islamic law. That's what they want to impose on the rest of us.

So they'd be found not guilty?

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong case, but, didn't she want to come back to the UK? Pretty sure ISIS would find her guilty of something. Being an infidel or whatnot.

Long Chile was a silly place.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
BCtriguy1 wrote:
windywave wrote:
cerveloguy wrote:
I wish these people would be tried under Islamic law. That's what they want to impose on the rest of us.

So they'd be found not guilty?

Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong case, but, didn't she want to come back to the UK? Pretty sure ISIS would find her guilty of something. Being an infidel or whatnot.

You're assuming she isn't being sent back
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My understanding is that at the time her British citizenship was revoked, she was still entitled to Bangladeshi citizenship via her parents, so UK didn't make her stateless.

Bangladesh subsequently said she couldn't have Bangladeshi citizenship, they are therefore the ones making her stateless.

So seems UK has acted legally, albeit it is slightly farcical that it basically seems to boil down to a game of musical chairs where the last country to revoke is left holding the can. Logical progression of this would be countries competing to be the first to disown any potential undesirables who hold dual citizenship, without waiting to establish the facts.

Similar case going on in the US currently with Hoda Muthana.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
We have village idiot #1, child isis bride and our government decided to withdraw her citizenship

So, I don't care if she came back and spent 40 years in jail, the remainder of her life, or if it were permissable she was executed following due process but I am not sure that we should have taken away her citizenship

I don't want her back, I don't want to pay for it, but as liabilities go, the UK is better placed to manage her than making her, her children and her associates stateless

Should we have made her stateless or should we have dealt with it

The UK can and does strip citizenship for various reasons, and the courts there have held it permissible to do so. Over here, the US can't strip a natural-born American's citizenship because the government didn't grant such citizenship in the first place, something the courts here have held in the past. That's a key difference between our two nations.

We have our own so-called "ISIS bride," Houda Muthana, who as it turns out may not have been "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States" when she was born to Yemeni parents who were at the time still considered to be diplomats of Yemen and who, because of that status, also weren't subject to said jurisdiction. Several years ago, the Obama administration declared that Muthana had renounced her permanent residency status and stripped her of her passport due to her fleeing to ISIS and encouraging her fellow Muslims to kill Americans. The current administration has also held to that position, leaving Muthana to cool her heels in a Syrian internment camp, which she was swept into, like the trash she is, after the US-led expulsion campaign saw ISIS booted from that part of the war-torn country.

Muthana's lawyers, of course, maintain that she's a natural-born American, meaning the government can't strip her of her citizenship. It's a big mess that the courts will have final say over, unlike your Shamima Begum and several other ISIS brides (Reema and Zara Iqbal, to name two), who's now pretty well left to her own devices after home secretary Sajid Javid yanked her citizenship, and deservedly so, in my opinion.

Note: Other posters have said that Begum holds Bangladesh citizenship through her mother and that she can go there, but that country is maintaining she never applied for dual nationality and has never visited Bangladesh in the first place, so it's also denying she's a citizen and won't allow her in. But as other posters have also said, actions do have consequences, and Begum is learning a hard, but necessary, lesson about such consequences.

Hopefully, her experience -- which she brought on herself -- will serve as a lesson to others out there contemplating throwing over the (classically, not politically) liberal Western democracies in which they live for the far less liberally inclined precincts to which they fled and then declared allegiance. There should be no going back after taking such steps, as hard as that may sound to some.

(I guess these ISIS brides are now living a real-life example of the famous short story by Edward Hale, "The Man Without a Country." Renounce your nation, either through word or deed, and look what may happen to you.)

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [travelmama] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'd be willing to pay, I just don't want tl
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
the UK is better placed to manage her than making her, her children and her associates stateless

Lots to think about -- she left the UK at 15, and has lost 3 kids, the baby last week.

an argument could be made that citizenship and repatriation would be contingent on her delivering anti-Isis anti-terrorist messaging for the rest of her days. She could represent the benefits of a merciful nation.

I don't know if this kind of heavy reprogramming and rebranding ever works in real life, if there are any actual examples.

Anyway that's a big project with lots of risks. Ain't nobody here got time for that, because we're dealing with an existential emergency. (And admittedly there's also a very good argument for being harsh with her).
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [kiki] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The UK is better placed to manage it than Bangladesh

I'm also not entirely convinced that simply saying theast person to not withdraw is left holding the terrorist is the right way to tackle it
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
The UK is better placed to manage it than Bangladesh

I'm also not entirely convinced that simply saying theast person to not withdraw is left holding the terrorist is the right way to tackle it

I don't know what these women were thinking, doing what they did, but by all rights they should now have a lifetime of regret in which to contemplate the error of their ways, as harsh as it is to say.

They're counting on our liberality -- which can also be our greatest weakness -- to win the day for them. I say we shouldn't give in to the better angels of our nature as regards them, if only to send a lesson to others out there thinking of doing something so foolish as to run off and join a terror group.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrewmc wrote:
I'd be willing to pay, I just don't want tl

Extrajudicial killing of a non-citizen is legal
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I'd be willing to pay, I just don't want tl


Extrajudicial killing of a non-citizen is legal

Without a doubt. Hell, we've even extra-judicially killed natural-born American citizens such as Anwar al-Awlaki, a senior recruiter for Al Qaeda who got a Hellfire missile from a Predator drone while he was hiding out over in Yemen, urging the deaths of his fellow Americans everywhere.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll concede that by the letter of the law there is a problem with revoking her citizenship. That said, I don't think there's a moral problem. Joining ISIS the way she did shouldn't be "reversible".
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is there any possible valuable information they can extract from her?
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [windywave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
windywave wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
I'd be willing to pay, I just don't want tl


Extrajudicial killing of a non-citizen is legal


Can be legal. Not "is" legal. It can be illegal as well.

Also extrajudicial killing of U.S. citizens can apparently be legal as well.
Last edited by: trail: Mar 10, 19 18:35
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [dontworry] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dontworry wrote:
Is there any possible valuable information they can extract from her?

No idea. It would be pure speculation though I suspect if she was actually genuinely valuable as an intelligence asset the U.S. security apparatus would have... ahem... had a word with her by now.
Quote Reply
Re: Withdrawing citizenship [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
big kahuna wrote:
Andrewmc wrote:
The UK is better placed to manage it than Bangladesh

I'm also not entirely convinced that simply saying theast person to not withdraw is left holding the terrorist is the right way to tackle it


I don't know what these women were thinking, doing what they did, but by all rights they should now have a lifetime of regret in which to contemplate the error of their ways, as harsh as it is to say.

They're counting on our liberality -- which can also be our greatest weakness -- to win the day for them. I say we shouldn't give in to the better angels of our nature as regards them, if only to send a lesson to others out there thinking of doing something so foolish as to run off and join a terror group.

Like many others, they joined ISIS while they were strong, feared, kicking ass and taking and holding territory. They were the winners, the rest of the world was dithering not knowing what to do.They love winners, strong leaders and what ISIS was promising and sort of delivering. If they didn't fit in the Western world and were morally/psychologically weak or insecure, ISIS was for them what UK or USA were not. Since nobody loves losers, now they want back, demanding rights, liberties and I would't be surprised if they sue. Some ex UK politician sad that UK failed her as a country (note that he is an ex something, he would never say what he said if he would have been current)
Quote Reply