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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [40-Tude] [ In reply to ]
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40-Tude wrote:
slowguy wrote:
ergopower wrote:
I think one thing missing from the responses above (some very good points made, though) is that a part of the foundation of Catholicism is the receiving of sacraments. There are the milestone ones such as baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage and last rites; but there are also the recurring ones of communion and confession. So to disassociate from the Church means being unable to have your children baptized, receive their first communion or be confirmed; nor for you to receive communion or to confess on a periodic basis.


This. It's not realistic to frame this in terms of whether someone would like to continue to be part of an "organization." That neglects to address the issues of belief and faith.

I like the analogy above regarding nationality. Many people don't support many of the actions of the United States government. That doesn't mean they are clamoring to disassociate themselves from the United States of America, and the ideals they associate with the country. Similarly, many Catholics don't support the actions of Church leadership. That doesn't mean they don't want to be Catholics anymore. It means they want the Church to clean up its act.

Yes. And the analogy posted earlier is how I frame this up. It originated from the following moment . . .

When wife and I decided to get married, it was important to my mom (dad had passed) that we have a Church marriage at our local parish that the family regularly attended at the time. Mom has always been and always will be a devout Catholic. So wife (raised Jewish, not practicing) had to be convinced, but eventually was ok with it, being that it was important to Mom and all.

When we met with the Priest to discuss and arrange, it was all negative from him . . . mixed faith marriages aren't a good idea, won't work, your kids will be messed up, blah blah blah. We were both shocked at how "unwelcoming" the whole vibe was. I was also peeved that the love of my life is being indirectly and directly disparaged. Wife was adamant that he not officiate the ceremony. That's the moment when I realized that it was his personal opinion, bias, and not the "right" point of view; That there is a distinct separation between the true principles and practice, and person(s) that are only "in the way".

Long story short, we found a different Priest that supported us, officiated the ceremony and served as Minister of Record. That was 25 years ago. Still going strong, and kids, now teens, are fine (most of the time).

If your wife had been practicing or returned to the her faith he would have been right based on anecdotal observed relationships.
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [windywave] [ In reply to ]
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.. Judaism is pretty hard core about *not* dating, much less marrying, non-Jews. My wife caught a fair amount of that drama and grief early on. I learned that her Dad struggled with dealing with me not being Jewish, nor White for that matter. That and other disconnects, hypocrisy, etc. turned her off from organized religion (any). So she's pretty much an atheist now. And she's much "nicer", for lack of a better word, than many practicing religious zealots.

On the mix of things - both my parents were their own result of having mixed parents. Wife and I brought the mix of religions as well as mix of races. We've referred to our kids as our Mutts :-) I also jokingly point out that we're deepening the gene pool . . . as her side of the family had the shallow end :-)

Going forward, I think it's less of a big deal for kids today to mix things up, less drama that I see. But I wonder if other parents might be as tolerant to their kids getting mixed up (figuratively speaking)?
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
ergopower wrote:
I think one thing missing from the responses above (some very good points made, though) is that a part of the foundation of Catholicism is the receiving of sacraments. There are the milestone ones such as baptism, first communion, confirmation, marriage and last rites; but there are also the recurring ones of communion and confession. So to disassociate from the Church means being unable to have your children baptized, receive their first communion or be confirmed; nor for you to receive communion or to confess on a periodic basis.


This. It's not realistic to frame this in terms of whether someone would like to continue to be part of an "organization." That neglects to address the issues of belief and faith.

I like the analogy above regarding nationality. Many people don't support many of the actions of the United States government. That doesn't mean they are clamoring to disassociate themselves from the United States of America, and the ideals they associate with the country. Similarly, many Catholics don't support the actions of Church leadership. That doesn't mean they don't want to be Catholics anymore. It means they want the Church to clean up its act.

Most Catholics could not tell you the difference in a Lutheran belief or a Catholic...

My wife life long Catholic, never has believed in transubstantiation I told her she should probably be a Lutheran, and she just looked at me funny.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [Bg Fan] [ In reply to ]
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I was raised as a Catholic and attend Anglican services, although I miss the Catholic ones. Never once has the Church's current scandal affected my adherence. I see the scandal - terrible, horrific impact on young people, crippling people for life, a true crime against humanity - as a separate issue from my faith and from what my local Church represents to me. Exactly as others have said, it's the analogy between thinking that US politics is messed up while also believing that Americans are pretty awesome (I'm Canadian.) My interactions on an individual level with the church have never reflected what is in the news so I don't make the link. Maybe I should, but I can't take what is going on at that higher level and apply it to the people in the Church with whom I interact here in my community. What do you want me to do: assume that everyone employed in the church down the road is implicated in sex abuse and supportive of it? Doesn't that seem judgmental in the wrong sense to you? Should I walk away from something that has been a source of strength because of Church leadership that's making bad decisions?

I understand that your question is genuine so my apologies if I come across a bit harsh; I don't know how to word things more softly, but it seems to me that your post implies that the entire organisation - ie, all priests, nuns - are bad by association. That's different from saying that the 'company's management' has screwed up and turned a blind eye to the abuse. The Church's leaders have made bad decisions, but I just can't extend that statement to all church members when I see those same church members equally appalled by the abuse. Maybe they're acting, but ironically I'd be going against my faith if I accused them of the worst without proof. I think American politics and political institutions are screwed up, but I support the the principles of democracy, the US, and Americans, and I'm quite sure you do too. Could you ever see yourself judging the behaviour of all congressmen, senators, secretaries, and White House administration and extending that to all Americans?
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [hyr00] [ In reply to ]
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hyr00 wrote:
I was raised as a Catholic and attend Anglican services, although I miss the Catholic ones. Never once has the Church's current scandal affected my adherence. I see the scandal - terrible, horrific impact on young people, crippling people for life, a true crime against humanity - as a separate issue from my faith and from what my local Church represents to me. Exactly as others have said, it's the analogy between thinking that US politics is messed up while also believing that Americans are pretty awesome (I'm Canadian.) My interactions on an individual level with the church have never reflected what is in the news so I don't make the link. Maybe I should, but I can't take what is going on at that higher level and apply it to the people in the Church with whom I interact here in my community. What do you want me to do: assume that everyone employed in the church down the road is implicated in sex abuse and supportive of it? Doesn't that seem judgmental in the wrong sense to you? Should I walk away from something that has been a source of strength because of Church leadership that's making bad decisions?

I understand that your question is genuine so my apologies if I come across a bit harsh; I don't know how to word things more softly, but it seems to me that your post implies that the entire organisation - ie, all priests, nuns - are bad by association. That's different from saying that the 'company's management' has screwed up and turned a blind eye to the abuse. The Church's leaders have made bad decisions, but I just can't extend that statement to all church members when I see those same church members equally appalled by the abuse. Maybe they're acting, but ironically I'd be going against my faith if I accused them of the worst without proof. I think American politics and political institutions are screwed up, but I support the the principles of democracy, the US, and Americans, and I'm quite sure you do too. Could you ever see yourself judging the behaviour of all congressmen, senators, secretaries, and White House administration and extending that to all Americans?

This wasn't a few higher ups in an organization turning a blind eye to a few instances. It was a systematic covering up of crimes, sex crimes done to children, by many levels of the organization, by a mind boggling number of members of the organization committing and covering up crimes by moving the criminals around so they could commit more crimes against children .

The priest at my parish when I was young was found out to be an active pedophile. Not sure if that was why he was moved but he never fucked me so why should I care. The priest at my cousin's parish was also found out to be one as well. You can probably tell by now that I no longer consider myself catholic. It really had and has nothing do do with the topic in question. I just struggle watching the mental gymnastics of some people justifying their religion. (notice I didn't say faith)

A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [Chri55] [ In reply to ]
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I just struggle watching the mental gymnastics of some people justifying their religion. (notice I didn't say faith)

It's nice that you make that distinction, but it still misses the mark. Their religion is Christianity. The piece you have a problem with is neither their faith, nor their religion. It's the religious organization associated with their denomination, or their Church if you want to phrase it that way.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
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I just struggle watching the mental gymnastics of some people justifying their religion. (notice I didn't say faith)


It's nice that you make that distinction, but it still misses the mark. Their religion is Christianity. The piece you have a problem with is neither their faith, nor their religion. It's the religious organization associated with their denomination, or their Church if you want to phrase it that way.

Perhaps but not necessarily. Where I grew up distinctions were made between religion, belief and faith. Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist etc. were religions. Christianity was the faith. The specific beliefs of the religions were not the same but they were all Christian.

A false humanity is used to impose its opposite, by people whose cruelty is equalled only by their arrogance
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Re: Honest question for Cathloics [Chri55] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, if I were in your position it would be a lot easier for me to make the link between the accusations against the Church and the people I interact with. Maybe I should be more sceptical but even doing that makes me uncomfortable because then it leads me to judging individuals with no direct evidence.

What has edged me away from Catholicism are the Church's declared institutional beliefs: denouncing homosexuality, its response toward people who have committed suicide, limiting contraception for women, and preventing women from become ordained - things where I disagree strongly with the Catholic Church. Now I sometimes wonder whether the Church is the right place for me, whether I'm represented in it, and what I should do about all that. I think the decline in membership has a lot more to do with the dissonance between the Church's platform and modern society than it does with a widespread, almost systematic crime.
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