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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
Now that the format is set, I have been thinking about it a bit. And one thing that I believe that will happen, is we will not be seeing the top folks actually racing against each other. Yes, they will be racing on the same day, same course, but this is a 3 way heads up format. So it would make little sense in putting the top 3 men and women in a heat together. You wont want to take a chance at wasting your best athlete, so probably will go something like football playoffs. Once selected, you will most likely get the best going against the worst in a lot of these match ups..

Gonna be hard for the team managers to tell many of their athletes that you are just cannon fodder in your race. Like I said before, if Europe puts up Frodo, you are not going to put up Sanders or the best American in that match up. You will be going to someone and saying, do your best, maybe he will get a flat and not be able to fix it..The format will likely push to less top confrontations, than more. It is all about the points at the end of the day, and earning those will be entirely tactical. When the race is over, no doubt losing teams will be able to see that they could have done better in different spots, and winning teams may see they could have gotten away with a lot less in certain spots..

Cool stuff

I agree it’s unlikely all the biggest guns will go head to head. In the matchups I think this is one area where it’s hard to compare the Collins Cup to the Ryder Cup, there’s a lot more chance in golf where anyone on the team could win 1 match, triathlon is more predictable. Either way I’m excited to watch.

I’d love to see this evolve to the point where there are a different numbers of athletes in different races. You could have 2 or 3 athletes from each team in a race. Team would have to make decisions about going for the best results, or sacrificing athletes as domestiques. I hope this sticks around long enough to see this race develop and evolve.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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Problem for Sarah True is that her various race meltdowns have her out of the top 50 on the PTO/trirating rankings.
PTO have been very good at communicating to the top ranked athletes - they say all the top 35 are on board so that has clearly been the focus.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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There is no masquerading. The pros make money by racing. If the races that exist don't pay them enough then yes, they will have to organize their own.

A ' pro association' trying to brow beat, threaten or arm twist Ironman into raising prize purses etc will get them nowhere as I previously stated.

Of course there are 'triathlon management' people in the organization! Who is going to run it?? Tim and Rinny between training sessions??

We have all heard about the Collins Cup for years now, I don't know how Sarah True never heard about it and it is possible that the organization hasn't personally reached out to every pro out there, especially the relatively new ones.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Very interesting thought - if the teams are able to do that strategy (and it is not I guess random pick) I think you will be right...not just performance, but strategy as well.

Overall I really like the concept and I think right now triathlon needs something to enliven it a bit. There's been a couple 'movements' over the years - the women movement, college movement, this is another one that hopefully will bring more people to the sport and/or keep people in the sport longer.

I think there is so much more to come with PTO, but the Collins Cup is certainly a great start. I feel they have already succeeded by getting the industry to talk about this new type of triathlon race. This inew type of challenge is similar to other sports where you have the pro level and age-group levels. Pro levels are televised - with F1 you can hear the drivers - can't find where it says it will be televised - but that would be cool to hear them.

I am certainly excited to see how this goes and hopefully be a success for the sport!

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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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If the US designates fastest athlete //

But that is the beauty, they dont have to do that in their 1st round. If it were me, I would hold back my faster athletes, and put up the slower ones first, just to see what the other teams do. It would be silly for the US to put up their best guy in the 1s round, as both the other teams would have athletes to handily beat them. SO to avoid that, you put up slower ones, and kind of work backwards, see how the teams are filling out, and look for a spot. I know I'm giving up the secrets here, but over the years it really seems like tactics have not been a strong suit with most countries..


For the team picking first, you are on defense, unless you have either Frodo or the current 70.3 WC, who just put Brownlee in his place. But even then, what if they were not on the same team, that would be a difficult choice, you do not want a Frodo going against an Gustav Iden. It is going to be fun once the teams are set, and we have an idea on where everyone is fitness wise..
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Right, but I think you are making the strategy seem easier than it really is. If US goes first and puts up a slower athlete, Europe can either put up a faster athlete first to sort of "guarantee" an early victory and put a point on the board or hold back and hope their number 3/4 is faster than the US 3/4 racer and then the US may be stuck putting their number 1 up against Europe number 1 or 2 regardless. And, the fact that a third team is in the mix makes the selection even more complex. So, in short, I think you will see some better match-ups than you think. I agree we will probably not see a 1-1-1, but quite possibly a 1-2-2 or 1-1-2 type match. And, a 3-3-4 type match may end up providing much more drama anyways.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [907Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Sound like it could potentially be a new source of income for some of the pro... and could be a nice entertainment, for those the people that are already watching the sport.

Very skeptical that any sport event that last longer that 2-3 hours (including presentation, replay and medals) could attract any new viewers.

Only so many people here have looked at the live broadcast of Kona... and i will not be surprised if Kona attract more viewers than all the other IM races combined.


Not too sure how it make "progress the sport" (ie: sell more AG bibs to races)
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:
PJC wrote:
sure sure. It won't be the who's who of the sport.

It will be a few.

Their goal has been to get the best Ironman / 70.3 and Olympic athletes into their professional organisation and race.

They won't do it. 50% of the top professionals won't race, that's if they put something on.


Nope, not a who's who. I mean Jan, Gomez, Brownlee, Charles, Haug, Carfrae, Kienle, Holly etc., who are they?


DFW_Tri wrote:
According to Instagram, Sanders and Hanson, and Lauren Brandon are doing it...not sure who else, but that's a good start.

Lets wait and see.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
Last edited by: PJC: Jan 21, 20 15:42
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [APKTRI] [ In reply to ]
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APKTRI wrote:
Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems like the PTO is just getting whole slew of the top pros to go to a one-day race. That is not going to do ANYTHING to grow triathlon. Who that doesn't already sit down and watch Kona all day is going to watch this race?
Rant over...

Nailed it. Announcing a 3 race series in Europe then USA and then some other country like Aust or NZ.

ChDoyle wrote:
Dr. Seuss wrote:
Correct me if I'm wrong but didnt PTO put in a bid to buy Ironman from WTC?


Yes but Ironman turned them down. I imagine that when Ironman saw that one one of the PTO board members was a Challenge Family board member that was red flag right there closing the door immediately.

No they didn't. They don't have any money. They would have struggled to come up with 2 million if they even have. Then who's paying for all of the athletes to actual get to the event.

I've said it before, I'd be surprised if this lasts longer than once. Unless they get sneaky and do every 4th year or something lame.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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Finally, is this going to be covered live like Superleague and Challenge/Ironman do? [internet for free]

Or packaged for TV that no one will watch?

Or just Brad going to cover it via twitter with his usual sarcasm? Which I like

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
Last edited by: PJC: Jan 21, 20 15:49
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
hadukla wrote:
PJC wrote:
sure sure. It won't be the who's who of the sport.

It will be a few.

Their goal has been to get the best Ironman / 70.3 and Olympic athletes into their professional organisation and race.

They won't do it. 50% of the top professionals won't race, that's if they put something on.


Nope, not a who's who. I mean Jan, Gomez, Brownlee, Charles, Haug, Carfrae, Kienle, Holly etc., who are they?


DFW_Tri wrote:
According to Instagram, Sanders and Hanson, and Lauren Brandon are doing it...not sure who else, but that's a good start.

Lets wait and see.

No wait and see, go and see now, the full list with pics is on their Instagram. The only one I didn't remember seeing was Ryf but i didn't specifically look for her. Other than maybe that is an absolute who's who.

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [DFW_Tri] [ In reply to ]
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Right, but I think you are making the strategy seem easier than it really is.//

No not at all, in fact quite the opposite. As you pointed out, there are 3 teams, thus 3 picks of which each team has to consider two of. Often times the 2nd pick is going to dictate to the last team who they will put up, not the 1st. If the coaches are more than token, then they will have to work through a ton of scenarios, alternate plans, and have to really have done their homework on "all" athletes racing.


I hope that like in the NFL draft, there is only so much time they have to put up their picks. Put some pressure on the coaches, and let the ones that did their homework have a bit of advantage. Of course on paper if everyone shows up that we think, Europe will be a pretty heavy favorite, and the US will be firmly at the bottom. But there will be scenarios where weaker teams can pick off points, and all that is needed is a mechanical or bad day here or there, and anyone could win it.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:
Looks good!

I'm going to have a bit of a moan about using the EU flag as the flag of Europe though, only about 55% of European countries are members they could have chosen something else!

It would be nice if they did restrict team Europe to the EU, then the Brits would bring some balance to team "rest of the world"

808 > NYC > PDX > YVR
2024 Races: Taupo
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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yes, there could be some significant debate around the definition of europe

the tactics could potentially be interesting but it really seems like EU would need to mess up badly to not be convincing winners given the strength and depth they have at the moment. germany alone is so strong!
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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Ryf is in. Saw it on her instagram.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:
Finally, is this going to be covered live like Superleague and Challenge/Ironman do? [internet for free]

Or packaged for TV that no one will watch?

Or just Brad going to cover it via twitter with his usual sarcasm? Which I like

Already been "sold" to Endurance TV I believe. Not sure people actually subscribe to that.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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Well I just read into the specifics a little more, and I will have to withdraw some of my earlier sentiments. It appears there is no prize money for the actual race, it is a sort of parade of the best athletes, who are all getting paid according to their rankings going in. Not sure I like this approach, really feel it should be two pronged here. Some money for the rankings, but separate prize money for the actual race..

They of course say everyone will race their little hearts out, but will they really? I say no, and when it gets tough and there really is nothing on the line, and you have another big race coming up, well seems like a recipe for shutting it down..Hope I'm wrong about this, perhaps some sponsor will step in and put up the purse. But other than individual bonus's folks have negotiated, dont see a big incentive to taper or go into the tank on this one...)-;
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [hadukla] [ In reply to ]
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hadukla wrote:

No wait and see, go and see now, the full list with pics is on their Instagram. The only one I didn't remember seeing was Ryf but i didn't specifically look for her. Other than maybe that is an absolute who's who.

OMG Please. I could say I'm putting on a race and tell all the pro's do a gram post as the "Appearance money" will be a pool of 2 million.

They still need to show up.

And actually race.

Not roll around.

No prize money is LAME

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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Makes sense. I see this as a entry into something more. If Son and the Vision Fund help tank China's economy, that could get a fire sale going with PTO waiting. Lots of stuff out of their control but def see this to overtake WTC and combine Challenge to create a better product for the athletes and fans/consumers..
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [Dr. Seuss] [ In reply to ]
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You do know that most of WSG's business units are not based in China? Right? Why heck would China's economy have anything to do with that. Mass Participation Unit is making money hand over fist. InFront is interesting, but they're making money too. The issue for WSG is the debt that Wanda went into acquiring all of those business units, not their health.

I'm not sure why you think Challenge is any better, in fact there are more than a few communities annoyed with Challenge. See Challenge Penticton.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I agree - having the prize purse be pre-determined by their "proprietary algorithm" based on past results, why race?

The biggest thing is, how are they going to make millions of dollars of revenue from this one event? Seems like a VERY tall order. If the prize money is pre-determined, it gives the athletes little incentive to really lay it all out there which makes it less compelling for the audience which makes the almost impossible task of making the event profitable even less likely.

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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [Dr. Seuss] [ In reply to ]
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Yes they did. And Messick publicly on a podcast as recently as last week said so, his obligation to take to board, which they declined. He also said that WTC will watch and see what happens but that “sustainability is a problem. We believe in our model. Time will tell..” words close to that.

Podcast was Marni on the Move.

I think its great $2MM infused to the sport. Its $2MM more than last week. Personally i dont see it working longer term. I mean in less than 8hrs pros were publicly throwing each other under the bus. Add Zibi is on the board. And the race is in Slovakia .... while venue looks stunning whos going to watch that live globally? Serious Q. Time zone differences etc...what target live audience would work?

@rhyspencer
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Re: Collins Cup....2020? [PJC] [ In reply to ]
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PJC wrote:


They won't do it. 50% of the top professionals won't race, that's if they put something on.


5 years of talk. Still no event.

Worst talking point ever in triathlon.

Rhymenocerus wrote:
I think everyone should consult ST before they do anything.
Last edited by: PJC: Mar 20, 20 2:16
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