Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [MRid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MRid wrote:
Latency is different per person, and that definitely provides an advantage in many online games.

True it does ( I know, i had a horrid game of league yesterday because of ping times)
But (indulge me for a second) - tampering with latency is a one way street, you cant make it go faster, you can introduce lag in the system - remember the old lan party days, where someone would unplug the network cable or hit pause on the router to dodge a kill? Yeah that doesnt happen anymore in the online games.. a) the companies that make these games are spending a ton of Operational man(person) power on improving last-mile latency. b) the games are designed to either send your character back to the spawn point if you disconnect, or the "action" is happening on the server, so you still die.

On the other hand with zwift, the tampering is all local (like the old lan party days) - all the data collection, the metrics, is all local. So tampering the trainer, or have someone else ride, or weight doping actually incentivize the player.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [harshc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You are correct, though there are other ways to cheat in online games. I will admit it is MUCH easier to cheat in Zwift than in other games, but cheating is not exclusive to Zwift.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [harshc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
harshc wrote:
Theres a difference though between regular Esports such as CS:Go, Fortnite, Overwatch, League, DOTA, FIFA. Everyone that is playing, the pros, the amateurs, the fans, everyone is playing on the same equipment. They are playing the same game, the same hardware (maybe different consoles), but the "environment" of the game doesnt change person to person.
Zwift on the other hand, requires physical work - someone has to actually get on the bike and hammer.

That's right. Only those that currently live in a place where noise is not an issue to neighbors (like a detached home or don't care). Non-homeowners or anyone without detached walls probably wont participate. Age range would most likely be 35-75.I'm describing the limitations because I'm in that category.

Esports - teams would practice on their own equipment then participate at live events or compete remotely which you could do in Zwift. DC Rainmaker's article also talks about those. The article here (https://zwiftinsider.com/how-massive-is-zwift/) mentions: Zwift isn’t just a fitness tool… it’s also an MMO: a massively multiplayer online game. But just how massive is it?
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [MRid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Or make it end



***
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Jason N wrote:
Given the Zwift app and trainers are relying on simple bluetooth, how hard would it be to simply create a device that sits in between your smart trainer and your computer that bumps up your wattage (and other associated metrics) by 5-10%?

Currently it might be easy. But the industry *should* eventually be able to take advantage of the BTE standards for authentication and encryption with relative ease. I haven't though fully through the authentication logistics, but the overall BTE standards consortium is acutely aware of the danger of man-in-the-middle attacks, which is what your proxy device is. It's just that normally the end consumer isn't also the threat. (Normally the threat is a 3rd party). But I think the case of the malevolent consumer can be handled.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [MRid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MRid wrote:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/02/challenges-ahead-zwift-esports.html


I think it's a pretty spot on analysis by Ray. I think there is definitely a demand for this, and enough money involved that many of these problems can be solved.

If the money becomes serious, the cheating issue will destroy it. Zwift isn’t reading the power from your trainer, it’s reading an Ant+ signal, that it assumes is from your trainer. What you need is an ant+ signal giving power data and some device data ( which can be simulated ).

I’ve been messing around with Ant+ in recent months, their site is really good, and you can simulate ant devices.

If I wanted to cheat for a load of cash, I would ‘ride’ Zwift using a joystick.

I don’t see how they can prevent that.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bluefever wrote:

If I wanted to cheat for a load of cash, I would ‘ride’ Zwift using a joystick.

I don’t see how they can prevent that.

On site races.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [MRid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
MRid wrote:
bluefever wrote:

If I wanted to cheat for a load of cash, I would ‘ride’ Zwift using a joystick.

I don’t see how they can prevent that.

On site races.

Yes, the only way.

A group of people in a room racing.

Might as well go outside together, then.

Kind of defeats the purpose, imho.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
They don't all have to be at the same site. You could have designated sites at various locations across the globe.

Also, you don't need to close roads, don't need security or other infrastructure. Live stream allows you to broadcast the race to the world at minimal costs. Many benefits.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [bluefever] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bluefever wrote:
MRid wrote:
bluefever wrote:


If I wanted to cheat for a load of cash, I would ‘ride’ Zwift using a joystick.

I don’t see how they can prevent that.


On site races.


Yes, the only way.

A group of people in a room racing.

Might as well go outside together, then.

Kind of defeats the purpose, imho.

I do a 24 hour team relay computrainer race every year at a computrainer studio. It is an awesome event. I could see the demand for a zwift studio for sure. Here in Madison, we have two indoor training studios (that I am aware of) and I think they do ok... or at least they have been in business for some time so they are at least surviving. I think a zwift studio would attract customers, at least in Madison where the market supports endurance sports and the weather is bad enough part of the year. I don't know if you can justify the capex needing to have both a trainer and an individual screen per trainer, but who knows. I would think zwift at some point would try to offer some sort of commercial membership package/software for this similar to computrainer's studio software.

As for watching zwift racing in general... I watched the last race after reading the DC rainmaker article. I did it while doing a workout. I did not like it, and probably won't watch another race, but who knows.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [MRid] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Sure cheating is an issue that should be addressed. 'Live events' look to be an easy solution but they detract from one of the biggest selling points of Zwift racing: you can compete in a location that is convenient to you without impacting on family life.

The most committed Zwift racer I know retired from a professional cycling career, had a couple if kids and now races in the lounge room whist they are asleep (or otherwise occupied). She has raced CVR, the national eCrit and the KISS super league. She has benefitted from the competition and the team work. She wouldn't have been able to do any of it if she had been forced to travel even if it was just to a local site.

As an aside, live events have their issues too. Some of the CVR finals have been plagued with dropouts. All those trainers and HR monitors transmitting in close proximity I guess. More than one person has had their chances wiped out by an untimely transmission error.

I don't know what the anti cheating solution is, but I think it would be silly to choose one that removes the very thing that sets Zwift racing apart.
Quote Reply
Re: DC Rainmaker on Zwift Racing [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
TennesseeJed wrote:
bluefever wrote:
MRid wrote:
bluefever wrote:


If I wanted to cheat for a load of cash, I would ‘ride’ Zwift using a joystick.

I don’t see how they can prevent that.


On site races.


Yes, the only way.

A group of people in a room racing.

Might as well go outside together, then.

Kind of defeats the purpose, imho.


I do a 24 hour team relay computrainer race every year at a computrainer studio. It is an awesome event. I could see the demand for a zwift studio for sure. Here in Madison, we have two indoor training studios (that I am aware of) and I think they do ok... or at least they have been in business for some time so they are at least surviving. I think a zwift studio would attract customers, at least in Madison where the market supports endurance sports and the weather is bad enough part of the year. I don't know if you can justify the capex needing to have both a trainer and an individual screen per trainer, but who knows. I would think zwift at some point would try to offer some sort of commercial membership package/software for this similar to computrainer's studio software.

As for watching zwift racing in general... I watched the last race after reading the DC rainmaker article. I did it while doing a workout. I did not like it, and probably won't watch another race, but who knows.

It does not defeat the purpose, if the purpose is to equitably compare the participants in the zwift/e-race. And I do believe it's just another segment of cycling. It can be called 'e' but you are still on a bike doing exercise, not moving a joystick (*if you aren't cheating...ala bluefever's ant manipulation offer...) and there is a real physical benefit to doing e-sports, as opposed to regular video gaming. *(And yes, I'm all ears to hear the gamers comments about this but I've personally seen the issue and have heard endless stories from my patients)



Tom A. wrote:
MRid wrote:
https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/02/challenges-ahead-zwift-esports.html

Fixed it for you (the link, that is...it's not hard to embed ;-)


Having knowledge is not as good as imparting knowledge to others in a gentle way. As someone who is less than computer savvy, I find that comment mildly offensive.


Alabama Viking wrote:
I still think all this Zwift and similar stuff is a huge pile of crap.

Opinions vary, and you are certainly entitled to yours.


Ai_1 wrote:
Alabama Viking wrote:
refthimos wrote:
Alabama Viking wrote:
At which point I seriously question the mental capacities of those excitedly watching this race.
Just put a Super League triathlon race up as comparison.

Slowman says he's fascinated by human powered movement. I would think most of us are. So why is NOT moving so popular?!


If we all had the same tastes, whether in food, bikes, or entertainment, the world would be a very dull place.


Couldn't agree more with that statement.
But I'm still waiting for any arguments why I should have a taste of this.
(And just to be clear: that is not directed at you)

There is no "should" in taste.
You like or you don't. I see no point in trying to convince yourself to enjoy something you don't.
Spectator sports are not, IMO, of REAL value to anyone but the viewer who's enjoying the experience.
Sure, they make money for professional athletes, promoters and media companies, but that's not value for society. It doesn't serve a purpose for the general good.
I don't watch either triathlon or Zwift races. They are the only two sports I currently compete in myself, but I don't find either enjoyable to watch. I'm not going to try and convince myself I like them, and I'm not going to feel bad about it. I'll watch rugby instead! However, I'm also not going to come on here telling people they should or shouldn't like it. It's fine to tell someone why you don't think the races are realistic, or fair. It's not reasonable to tell them they shouldn't enjoy it, or demand they explain why you should.

Yes, we all have different tastes. No one is forcing it. I would argue that there is societal value in performing exercise on a trainer regularly.
Quote Reply

Prev Next