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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [j p o] [ In reply to ]
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Moral relativism will take you down a dark road very quickly. Because you aren't going to be able to limit to today versus 75 or 100 or 1000 years ago. You will also have to consider other cultures. So it makes any moral judgment suspect.

Yep. No surprise, morality is a tough nut to crack in many cases. I understand the reticence to go down that road, but sometimes it's entirely appropriate. It's simply an extension of the moral judgments we make every day.

It's immoral to punch someone in the face. Well, it's immoral to punch someone in the face, except if you're boxing, when it's ok because the other guy gives his consent. But is it really even morally ok to engage in the sport of boxing, given that it glorifies combat and fighting and aggression, and given that it can have long term negative health effects? Who knows how people will look at it in 100 years? Will it be considered an immoral atrocity like pitting gladiators against each other in ancient Rome?

Moral relativism may be a dangerous term, but it's ok, in my opinion, to consider whether some action we consider immoral today might be considered moral in a different time under different circumstances. Much of what constitutes judgment about the morality of an action is dependent on the intent and point of view of both parties to the action. And those points of view are influenced by the time, culture, and circumstances surrounding the incident.

If the baseline attitude of the time, shared by both men and women, was that it was generally socially acceptable for this type of celebratory expression, and if the woman in question has said she doesn't feel she was assaulted, and there was no intent on the part of the Sailor other than to express jubilation at the end of a world war (a feeling most people alive today can't really comprehend), then I think it's worth a discussion about whether we really should strictly apply our view of morality today to actions taken in 1945.

I'm ok if someone decides the Sailor acted immorally. I would appreciate if others could see the opposite side without feeling the need to paint people as immoral monsters. Unfortunately, this is the LR, and the internet is full of judgmental assholes, so I'm not holding my breath waiting for reason to prevail.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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Well said.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
... it's ok, in my opinion, to consider whether some action we consider immoral today might be considered moral in a different time under different circumstances. Much of what constitutes judgment about the morality of an action is dependent on the intent and point of view of both parties to the action. And those points of view are influenced by the time, culture, and circumstances surrounding the incident.


I disagree with multiple points you make, but to address the above argument, people have been discussing right and wrong forever. Attempting to identify the frameworks for moral living has been a pillar of society forever. A basic goal has been to identify what is true and right that transcends time and place. That, afterall, is how we know what truth is. Truth transcends time and space and cultural norms.

It is ridiculous to say that an action is moral simply because those with power called it moral at the time. The weak and downtrodden have a different opinion. Guaranteed. Slavery was legal and those people who were the strongest claimed it was right. That does not make it moral.

What would you have historically marginalized people do to discuss historical wrongs? I'm not calling names. I don't think the sailor was a monster. But I would like you to recognize that our societal acceptance of his stolen kiss represents a broader problem. That problem has nothing to do with the end of WWII. It is a coincidence that the stolen kiss and WWII are spoken of at the same time.
Last edited by: Calamityjane88: Feb 23, 19 15:28
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
Well said.

Supporting Slowguy twice in one thread, are you feeling ok? ;-)

_____
TEAM HD
Each day is what you make of it so make it the best day possible.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [TheRef65] [ In reply to ]
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TheRef65 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Well said.

Supporting Slowguy twice in one thread, are you feeling ok? ;-)



Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
ajthomas wrote:

Yawn. You are unfit for you job. The woman in the photo made her feelings perfectly clear. I have no insight, I am just considering her account and applying a modicum of common decency.

So Bravo. You think it was okay for a drunk man to forcibly grab a woman and open mouth kiss her because he was celbrating despite the woman telling you otherwise. And you wonder why someone resorted to vandalism....

For the record, right or wrong, one thing we can probably agree on is things are going to get worse for you. I hope you enjoy the ride down as much as the women enjoyed that kiss.

You seem like a complete asshole. My guess is that you’re overcompensating for some past transgressions or you think this bullshit meetoo white knighting is the only chance you have to get laid.

You’ve managed to get me to defend slowguy. Congratulations.

Nah Duffy. It really is genuine disgust for Slowguys defense of the assault. You and I are completely different. When I say something outrageous I mean it.

That said, you and JSA are right. I was being too much of an ass. And slowguy was right for telling me to fuckoff because in the end that is exactly what I told him to do, just in more words.

So Slowguy, I am sorry for taking it to such a personal level.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [ajthomas] [ In reply to ]
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"So Slowguy, I am sorry for taking it to such a personal level. "

No apologies allowed in the LR. Take that shit to the tri forum!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Calamityjane88] [ In reply to ]
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Attempting to identify the frameworks for moral living has been a pillar of society forever. A basic goal has been to identify what is true and right that transcends time and place. That, afterall, is how we know what truth is. Truth transcends time and space and cultural norms.

Sure. and as I said, I'm perfectly good with these discussions taking place. However, to assume we ever know what "truth" really is, is kind of presumptuous. After all, people before us thought they knew truth too.

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It is ridiculous to say that an action is moral simply because those with power called it moral at the time.

True. But I didn't say that. I made an argument based on social acceptance and individual attitudes, not declarations from the powers that be.

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The weak and downtrodden have a different opinion. Guaranteed. Slavery was legal and those people who were the strongest claimed it was right. That does not make it moral.

Yes, but again, not really what we're talking about here. I'm not saying that no actions can be determined to have been immoral. As I said, we view the use of gladiators in the Roma coliseums to be immoral. We view slavery to be immoral. I'm not arguing that we can never make a moral determination about the conduct of those who went before us. I'm simply acknowledging that sometimes we also have to be willing to accept that just because we wouldn't allow something today, that doesn't mean it was socially unacceptable or immoral to do it 50 or 100 years ago.

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It is a coincidence that the stolen kiss and WWII are spoken of at the same time.

It's not just coincidence. It provides context for the action in question, and context is crucial to discussion or the morality or immorality of an action.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [slowguy] [ In reply to ]
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slowguy wrote:
However, to assume we ever know what "truth" really is, is kind of presumptuous. After all, people before us thought they knew truth too.


Okay, so to avoid being "presumptuous " we will stop seeking truth? Silly. To avoid "presentism" we will stop analyzing historical attitudes by our current understanding of what is right and wrong? Silly.

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I made an argument based on social acceptance and individual attitudes, not declarations from the powers that be.


When the people who hold positions of power are predominantly white and male, they enact laws that favor white males. Historically and in our lifetime, a cause of action based upon rape could not be brought by a wife against her husband. The "powers that be" essentially declared that a woman's right to not be raped ended when she married. When we have laws on the books like that, they influence social acceptance of sexist attitudes among the general population.

In addition to legislatures, we should remember that the business world, colleges and universities, Hollywood, and the book publishing world was dominated by white men. Sadly, they probably still are. These institutions help create social attitudes. Social attitudes and the powers that be are clearly linked.

So, the argument that society's acceptance of sexist behavior in a certain era makes it moral behavior fails.

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It's not just coincidence. It provides context for the action in question, and context is crucial to discussion or the morality or immorality of an action.


I agree context is important. In thinking about the stolen kiss and your arguments that it was acceptable and moral behavior, I haven't felt swayed by the fact that it occurred when the declaration of the end of the war was made. How is this particular moment important in our analysis?
Last edited by: Calamityjane88: Feb 23, 19 17:57
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Calamityjane88] [ In reply to ]
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Okay, so to avoid being "presumptuous " we will stop seeking truth? Silly. To avoid "presentism" we will stop analyzing historical attitudes by our current understanding of what is right and wrong? Silly.

More stuff I didn't say. I'm happy to discuss the issue with you, but I'm not going to defend things I never said.

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When the people who hold positions of power are predominantly white and male, they enact laws that favor white males. Historically and in our lifetime, a cause of action based upon rape could not be brought by a wife against her husband. The "powers that be" essentially declared that a woman's right to not be raped ended when she married. When we have laws on the books like that, they influence social acceptance of sexist attitudes among the general population.

It's a bit of a stretch to get from a to b and say that kissing a woman in celebration at the end of a world war is happening because those in power said it was ok. I'm talking about social norms. Yes, those are influenced by those in power, but as we can clearly see from history, they are not dictated by those in power. The populace sets their own standards based on a number of factors.

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So, the argument that society's acceptance of sexist behavior in a certain era makes it moral behavior fails.

Yet another argument I didn't make.

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I agree context is important. In thinking about the stolen kiss and your arguments that it was acceptable and moral behavior, I haven't felt swayed by the fact that it occurred when the declaration of the end of the war was made. How is this particular moment important in our analysis?

First, I didn't say the stolen kiss was moral. I said it was likely considered socially acceptable at the time, es evidenced by the fact that society didn't make any kind of big deal out of it. As to how the circumstances are pertinent in our consideration of the actions taken, I think we would look at this differently if the stolen kiss was conducted in a dark alley on a random Saturday evening. I think we would look at it differently if it happened at a wedding reception. I think we would look at it differently if it happened in an office setting in the middle of a work day.

The circumstances surrounding the action influence the perceptions of the Sailor, the woman, the observers, the photographer, and society as they viewed the photo afterward. Attempting to isolate the action without context misses a big aspect of the concept of morality.

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Calamityjane88] [ In reply to ]
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When the people who hold positions of power are predominantly white and male, they enact laws that favor white males.


That’s a racist and sexist assumption.

Imagine someone saying, “black people in power will pass laws favoring blacks over whites”.

That’s the type of shit you’ll read on Storm Front.

I’m a white male. Most of the things I do is for the benefit of a woman, my wife.

Yet someone with a bigoted, prejudiced outlook like yours would look at me and assume I’m only interested in helping other white males. It’s absurd, it’s racist, it’s sexist.

If you think a white man in power cannot represent the interests of a black woman then you MUST also believe that Kamala Harris (a black woman running for President) cannot represent the interests of me.

Do you really want us to go down this path?

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
Last edited by: Duffy: Feb 23, 19 21:59
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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When the people who hold positions of power are predominantly white and male, they enact laws that favor white males.


That’s a racist and sexist assumption.

Imagine someone saying, “black people in power will pass laws favoring blacks over whites”.

That’s the type of shit you’ll read on Storm Front.

I’m a white male. Most of the things I do is for the benefit of a woman, my wife.

Yet someone with a bigoted, prejudiced outlook like yours would look at me and assume I’m only interested in helping other white males. It’s absurd, it’s racist, it’s sexist.

If you think a white man in power cannot represent the interests of a black woman then you MUST also believe that Kamala Harris (a black woman running for President) cannot represent the interests of me.

Do you really want us to go down this path?

Your faux outrage notwithstanding, her comment is not a "racist and sexist assumption". It is really just a pretty uncontroversial and commonplace observation.

Kamala Harris is hardly an analogue for millennia of virtually every institution of power in every western nation being controlled by white men. Give it a few centuries of governments,(& religions, churches, armies, universities etc etc) either overwhelmingly or entirely controlled by black women and I'd say its a certainty that people like you would be suggesting that laws favour black women. Black women would still be people doing the right thing by their families and others, but control of the reins of power eventually has that kind of impact.

Whatever her modest influence may be or may become, I would entirely expect Kamala Harris to be informed by a greater than average empathy for the concerns of black women. As a white male, I wouldn't find that to be at odds with her ability to represent me at all. Quite the contrary.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Bone Idol] [ In reply to ]
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As a white male, I wouldn't find that to be at odds with her ability to represent me at all. Quite the contrary.

Neither would I.

Also as a white male, I see no reason why I wouldn’t be able to represent her.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
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As a white male, I wouldn't find that to be at odds with her ability to represent me at all. Quite the contrary.


Neither would I.

Also as a white male, I see no reason why I wouldn’t be able to represent her.

I agree with you on paper or in an Enlightend Society (whatever that means), but history shows otherwise - even the founding documents of the US were written by white males for the benefit of white males.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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If it sounded like I said that a white man CAN'T fairly represent the interests of minorities (which I didn't say, but you think I said), then I apologize. I didn't mean that. I think if you re-read my posts and consider all my ideas, you'll agree that I didn't say that.

I said that if you look at historical data about the division of wealth and protection of legal rights, you will no doubt agree that white men in our country have chosen not to fairly represent the interests of minorities. THAT leads to my main point about the origins of harmful social norms that we collectively adopt.

Being able to take another look at something, like a statue, and see it in a new light, is fun and educational. I don't think you have to destroy the statue or say the old story is a nefarious lie. We have the old story. We understand why we believed it. We have a new story. We can assimilate the new information and become richer, stronger people.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
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LorenzoP wrote:
Duffy wrote:
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As a white male, I wouldn't find that to be at odds with her ability to represent me at all. Quite the contrary.


Neither would I.

Also as a white male, I see no reason why I wouldn’t be able to represent her.

I agree with you on paper or in an Enlightend Society (whatever that means), but history shows otherwise - even the founding documents of the US were written by white males for the benefit of white males.



Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I scored a 9
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
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LorenzoP wrote:
I scored a 9

I got a 5.

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I would have scored a tad lower - but I allowed for the damn good chance I'd catch a bit of gay if I was in same room with you.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [LorenzoP] [ In reply to ]
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LorenzoP wrote:
I would have scored a tad lower - but I allowed for the damn good chance I'd catch a bit of gay if I was in same room with you.

My new score is 13

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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11.

Also, I've never been more unsure if something was meant to be serious, or mocking the thing it purports to be.

Edit: five minutes later and I still can't tell if it's satire.

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W
Last edited by: sphere: Feb 24, 19 16:29
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [sphere] [ In reply to ]
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sphere wrote:
11.

Also, I've never been more unsure if something was meant to be serious, or mocking the thing it purports to be.

Edit: five minutes later and I still can't tell if it's satire.

And so here we are.....

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a 6. Yay. Now what do I do with it? I want me some oppression.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
LorenzoP wrote:
Duffy wrote:
Quote:
As a white male, I wouldn't find that to be at odds with her ability to represent me at all. Quite the contrary.


Neither would I.

Also as a white male, I see no reason why I wouldn’t be able to represent her.


I agree with you on paper or in an Enlightend Society (whatever that means), but history shows otherwise - even the founding documents of the US were written by white males for the benefit of white males.



There are no Asians, natives, Hispanics... on this pic. Bloody racist ye all.
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Re: Statue Of Kissing Sailor Vandalized With '#MeToo' After Veteran's Death [Duffy] [ In reply to ]
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Duffy wrote:
LorenzoP wrote:
I would have scored a tad lower - but I allowed for the damn good chance I'd catch a bit of gay if I was in same room with you.


My new score is 13

POTD.

(btw my score was 18)
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