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How to train for crazy hill trail marathon?
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Wanting to try something new I signed up for the Breakneck Point half marathon. Looks incredible. 13 miles and 6500 feet of climbing.

My question is: how does one train for this vs a normal half? Do I just find the steepest longest hill and start running up and down?
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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Train for the time, not the distance is likely the biggest difference. So, if you only have easy trails, tune up your training as if you are preparing for a 15 mile race on your local turf.

Otherwise, learn how to powerhike the steep stuff. You'll use way less energy and go the same speed as someone awkwardly running. So, find a steep thing and go up/down and find out where it make sense to hike/run.

Finally, make sure you don't waste energy on descents. Learn how to descend fast so you don't squander that free speed.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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ok, looking at the route

https://www.plotaroute.com/route/732922

its 3600 gain and 3600 descent. If your a fast guy, you need to run downhills. If you don't practice that, your quads will be destroyed (but its only few miles bombing down). Its not that bad. Get on treadmill at higest grade...…..yes find longest hill and do repeats.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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You're not going to be able to run much of the uphills unless you're some kind of mountain goat. You're unlikely to be able to run down most of the descents unless you are some kind of mountain goat. That being said, the best way to train for something like this is to find steep gnarly climbs and descents and practise, practise, practise. We organised a mountain run here that was similar - 19km and 1850m of elevation gain. This was on an out-and-back course; that meant the elevation was gained over just half of the course. We took people up into the hills and trained them. From8 hrs (yes 8 hrs) initially, they were down to 4-5 hrs come race day.

Running on flats won't cut it. Running on hills won't cut it. Only training on gnarly ascents and gnarly descents will really prepare your legs and lungs. Use other training on 'nicer' surfaces to keep your aerobic fitness heading in the right direction. But you gotta find the gnarly stuff to properly prepare.

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Well, I have a PhD :-)
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [PhilipShambrook] [ In reply to ]
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Beware of Achilles Tendinitis! I believe that's how i got mine...training or a long trail ride. I was doing sprints up a freakishly steep hill three days a week and running way too far too fast. I was out of commisison for over a year so train wisely....if you're going to add in more mileage and more hills do it slowly.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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I did the inferno half a couple of times and it has even a bit more climbing (7200 feet). That is a completetly different race than a flat half marathon and you need to prepare accordingly. However, I noticed that when I ride a lot my uphill running progresses a lot too. So for me cycling really helps with mountain running and the good thing is you can do big mileage relatively quickly. You still need to run uphill tough, but you can increase it slowly.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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There is a book coming out in a few weeks that I saw advertised called "Training for the Uphill Athlete" that looks pretty good.

Go do some long runs on the course if you can get there.

If you enjoy the Breakneck Point race I suggest trying to get in to the Escarpment Trail Run.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [Jon] [ In reply to ]
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Have you done both? If so how would you compare them? I have run the Escarpment and registered for this year's Breakneck. Thanks
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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Hill reps (like written in the other posts) and become familiar with vertical speed (how much m do you climb per min or h). For me 10 to 12m/min is my vertical speed for long races, 20m/min for races until 40min duration. It helps a lot to pace yourself during the climbs and to know when you should run or just walk/hike.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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This may be controversial but there is some new evidence that weight training 1-2x a week on top of running will help.
Squats, calf raises, lunges, hamstring curls.

I used to do a crazy session that did both at the same time with super light weight and fast reps:
20min w/u

repeat 2-3x:
20 leg press or squats
5min tempo run
20 leg extensions
5min tempo run
20 hamstring curl
5min tempo run

10-15min c/d
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Kenney wrote:
ok, looking at the route

https://www.plotaroute.com/route/732922

its 3600 gain and 3600 descent. If your a fast guy, you need to run downhills. If you don't practice that, your quads will be destroyed (but its only few miles bombing down). Its not that bad. Get on treadmill at higest grade...…..yes find longest hill and do repeats.


Chiming in from Hong Kong - there are routes around here with that kind of elevation change. And yeah, there's quad issues. But beyond that, the people who do well on these races bomb down the downhills. And I'm guessing that they're pretty technical for this race? You can gain some time on the uphills if you're good at them but not compared to what you can gain on the downhills if you're good at them. (Which I, personally, am not). Also really helps to be comfortable with passing/being passed on the downhills.

That said, nothing wrong with having this one as an experience to prep you for the next time around.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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Poles will definately help
Learn to speedwalk uphill. There is no shame in walking, even top trail runners will walk some
If you have not practiced running downhill, this will be your biggest challenge. When I started trail running last year, I reallty struggled with the descents. A guy I ran with told me to find a good hill and practice descending, you actually build up strength pretty quickly. And of course, if you practice descending, you are also going to climb too.
I find that solid, easy to eat food works best. Potatoes, boiled in salty water, then baked are simply brilliant. Also like mini spring rolls, however, will also take gels and chocolate bars
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
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Forgot to mention that trail run race directors are mad, psychotic, sadists, who choose the hardest, most challenging possible routes. Luckily most trail runners as masochists, so enjoy the challenge. Just warning you
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [mattsurf] [ In reply to ]
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mattsurf wrote:
There is no shame in walking, even top trail runners will walk some


A friend of mine, who has crewed Badwater 3 times and has 2 finishes of her own, almost a dozen Umstead finishes, as well as some other assorted 100s, 50s, and 24-Hour races to her credit, has the following as her forum/social sig: "100 Milers are all Gallowalking festivals"

YMMV

"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [NordicSkier] [ In reply to ]
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NordicSkier wrote:
This may be controversial but there is some new evidence that weight training 1-2x a week on top of running will help.
Squats, calf raises, lunges, hamstring curls.

I used to do a crazy session that did both at the same time with super light weight and fast reps:
20min w/u

repeat 2-3x:
20 leg press or squats
5min tempo run
20 leg extensions
5min tempo run
20 hamstring curl
5min tempo run

10-15min c/d

I second this suggestion. I do a 50K trail race in the Pisgah NC mtns every year, and the thing that helps me the best is hill repeats and hitting leg day in the gym. Walking weighted lunges. Box jumps. Calf raises.
Training for the downhills is also important. Down hurts more for me.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [ScoutMac187] [ In reply to ]
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Breakneck is an amazing race. Highly recommend.
- Scenery is amazing.
- The people that sprint the downhill are a mix of masochist and skilled down-hill ski instructor. A 60 year old woman in khakis shorts ran by me like I was standing still.
- There rocks made it very technically hard for me. Not a lot of flat foot placement along the entire trail. It was a lot of tip-toeing on the rocks.
- Shoe selection is critical.
- The climb up Breakneck ridge was really cool. Didn't expect that.
- The downhill is harder than the uphill on the quads and legs.


Any word is Escarpment will be run in 2021. Website/Facebook didn't say anything.
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Re: How to train for crazy hill trail marathon? [eburgers69] [ In reply to ]
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Ok, pretty similar to "The Goat" in New Zealand. Half Marathon, 1100m (c3300ft) ascent. You start at the top of one ski field and run down hill to half way then go back up, including a literal climb up a waterfall face.

As mentioned, if you're 'racing' then it's about the descent. I lost so much time on the downhill as I've dodgy ankles and was being very conservative. Gained a fair bit relative on the uphill. And that coems from loads of practice running downhill on loose trails. No other way, it's a combination of a skill and confidence.

As for fitness training, great advice already. Train for the duration not the distance. It's strength not speed, so weights are your friend. I did a lot of work running up and down stairs. Helps I've a local volcano to to be able to do laps up and down, others may not have that. Practice running slow, and run / walking. Also, do you have to carry a pack, emergency kit?

Final thing, consider your kit. If it's actually trails then get trail shoes. The Solomon XA Pro's have been my go to for 15 years now. Also think hydration, you probably won't have drinks stations every 2km, so that's a key issue. Again, I carried a bit more water and made up a lot of time int eh final part over others that had run out.

And be prepared for changing weather. First year I did it there was 140km winds at the finish, windchill of -4. And this was in the middle of summer. Several people got hyperthermia, even though they had mandatory kit to keep them warm, they didn't take it out of their rucksack.
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