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Re: FTP long time stuck [Robert Estienne] [ In reply to ]
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I thought the purpose of those was to announce to the world that you ordered a double.

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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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I'm going against the grain here and tell you what has worked for me. n=1, caveat emptor, etc, etc.

I'm mostly a duathlete, so I hardly swim. That's one. I also like to do a bunch of running A-races, mostly halfs, and am getting in the habit of doing a marathon a year.

The way I've managed to get significantly faster running, while improving my FTP both in absolute Watts and definitely in W/kg, is by running. Running lots. And then run some more. So I run, and do two bike workouts per week, an easy-ish Zwift meetup with friends where we ride easy for 40 minutes and get racey the last 20. And I do a workout with lots of VO2max work. No long ride. I lost a ton of weight and despite the limited bike volume my FTP went up by 10W over about 4 months. Not spectacular, but I'm probably pretty close to my genetic maximum and my age (52) isn't helping. I'm at 287W now; 13 more Watts and I can retire and slip into dotage :-D

So if all the other suggestions of people way more qualified than me don't work: swap 2-3 or of those 7 bike hours with running. Run long with tempo segments, and run hard intervals once a week.

Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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This helped me when i felt “stuck”

Day 1 2x20 @95% of FTP
Day 2 5x5 (w 5min RI) @110% FTP
Day 3 rest
Day 4 repeat day 1
Day 5 some other vo2
Day 6 rest

Keep going over and over

I betcha you’ll see FTP improvements on that plan, w less time

This is no joke. Rest when it says to rest

Post back when it works :)
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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IamSpartacus wrote:
15hours+ vs 7hours, and ftp basically a wash? this is what scares me lol. I was chipper with the idea of going all in on the bike in the offseason, with just a few swims/runs per week to minimise the damage. This thread had me convinced. But a few of these stories makes me gun shy.
Surely 22hrs vs 20ish hours of cycling, youd be much better all around on that volume.
However i will ask though, is your FTP already high? I use trainerroad virtual power on the kurt kinetic road machine and find it quite accurate. The problem is im maxing out at 260, and im about 72 kilos. There has gotta be more in me than that in my opinion. Im prepared to hit 12hr weeks bike only to find out, hoping that will lift it.

More like, after years of training at a pretty high level, there's just not much room for improvement. I'm around 4.6.-4.7. There's just not a lot higher I can go with my genetic capabilities. After putting in the miles and the hours and the workouts, I'm pretty close to as good as I'm going to get, and I got there after 6-7 years of training.

I definitely wouldn't advise against trying something you're interested in. My point was that once you've done a lot of training, though, there's likely not going to be a lot of improvement unless your prior training was really awful.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [rubik] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds though as if you got the improvement from the years when you were doing the big volumes, and then have been able to maintain it on shorter weeks with more intensity? Think the OP has never done that big volume, so could well be that he has room for improvement by doing a period of bike focus with 12+ hours of cycling/week.

That's certainly been my experience. Once I had a decent level of bike fitness and had a few years of consistent, good quality training under my belt, further gains only came from doing a bike focus with bigger volumes. Good news is that having raised the bar, it's always been much easier to maintain or regain those levels on lower volumes.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [ In reply to ]
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I am probably the last person that should make a comment on this thread, but I can testify that I was training in the 6 to 7 hour range and a couple years ago I changed it up a little and bumped up my time to 10 hours. That year life allowed it with a steady and consistent work week and home life was calm. Although I come from a completely different background and did very well competing in strength type activities at a higher level, I would consider myself to be a very hard gainer in the world of endurance.

At the ~7 hour training week for cycling I reached 230 FTP with the standard 2 x 20 @91% FTP during the week and group rides on the weekend. Bumping it up to 10 hour weeks I had to change a little in order to maintain the increased volume. Also strength training is still my primary training so that interfered with fatigue/recovery and hitting the prescribed training targets on the bike. My FTP did not go up with 10 hours, but some other things happened that year that gave me an appreciation beyond chasing moving that threshold ceiling up per a number. Sure I really wanted to get to 270 and closer to 3.5 watts/kg, but that did not happen.

What did happen was a drastic improvement to my overall endurance on longer courses and I was really excited about that. For the 100 mile course that I use on Saturday and sometimes only go 80 of that I was not fading as bad in those last 20 miles or so like I was on 7 hours a week. So where I was hoping that increasing my FTP would allow me to pace at a higher speed over the long haul at a lower wattage (78% of a greater FTP would be faster right?), but I did reduce the finishing times on this training course because I was holding ~78% FTP better on the same FTP from start to finish. I did fade in the last miles as to be expected, but no where as bad. Even though my FTP did not increase my finishing time improved with increased weekly training hours. Another thing that I observed that even though the increased training time was a little more fatiguing overall, I recovered from that long training ride faster as well. With lower training hour weeks and riding with my cycling group/friends I was always dropped in the first 20 miles of a No Mercy group ride and would have to finish out the last 40 miles or so as solo. After getting a tri bike, increasing my training week hours and spending a lot of time in a TT type pace of about 75%+ of FTP for 80 to 100 miles my friends were astonished that the guy that was always dropped was now on the front a lot and finished in the lead group. And this was with no real increase in FTP believe it or not. My ability to maintain a sustained power output had drastically improved.

On a 6 hour training week and doing a random long course I was totally useless after the ride and would nap for several hours. Once I increased my training time and threw in the long course every Saturday I did not need a nap and felt great doing home projects later that day. Like building a paver patio in the backyard that year. So there were benefits to me with increasing my training time up to 10 hours even if I am a hard gainer with a low FTP.

My point is that for a guy (me) that was really fixated on a FTP number since getting my first power meter back in 2008 I realized that year of increasing my weekly training hours that there were some other benefits that ended up being just as valuable. Well at least to me. Now I really want to get back to this and will have to work my way back up to being able to handle this training load, but first I have to get past these work deadlines.
Last edited by: Felt_Rider: Feb 18, 19 4:09
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Re: FTP long time stuck [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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How are you testing FTP? Assuming you're using the ramp, 8 minute or 20 minute test, and not actually testing by doing a full hour at max effort? In which case my guess is that your FTP (using the definition of the max power you can sustain for an hour) did actually rise significantly, it just didn't show up in your tests. Shorter tests for FTP are much more convenient and less painful than riding flat out for an hour, but they are also only estimates and for riders who lack endurance they're not very accurate. Sounds like endurance was quite a limiter for you previously and you made big improvements, which would almost certainly have improved the power you could hold for an hour, just not much improvement in the power you could hold for 8 or 20 minutes.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [cartsman] [ In reply to ]
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cartsman wrote:
How are you testing FTP? Assuming you're using the ramp, 8 minute or 20 minute test, and not actually testing by doing a full hour at max effort? In which case my guess is that your FTP (using the definition of the max power you can sustain for an hour) did actually rise significantly, it just didn't show up in your tests. Shorter tests for FTP are much more convenient and less painful than riding flat out for an hour, but they are also only estimates and for riders who lack endurance they're not very accurate. Sounds like endurance was quite a limiter for you previously and you made big improvements, which would almost certainly have improved the power you could hold for an hour, just not much improvement in the power you could hold for 8 or 20 minutes.


I started using mFTP in WKO 4 over doing tests in the particular year that I was describing as my year to extend training time. However, I also had a significant crash in June of that year and had to ease up on intensity due to a torn PCL. At that point I could not put the pressure on that leg for official testing. So that year was kind of a mess and yet still not too bad considering. I am mindful of something Dr. Coggan told me that because I have a long history of leg training that I may tolerate short intense intervals better than others and 20 minute tests and shorter may not be a good reflection. Where I live it is impossible to find a place for 60 minutes and I tend to overheat inside for 60 minutes. I will work my way up on indoor 60 minute efforts, but I know I am under. Therefore, you may be correct that the mFTP is taking best efforts in different duration and intensity and is not the best reflection either. What I have found though is the mFTP helps me set my training levels for indoor sessions and from there I go up a watt or two every so many weeks if I can handle it. If I begin to struggle with managing the load I will back it down. My main goal was to become more consistent in training each week.

My last official test was an outdoor effort with a coach/friend helping me. We used a rural stretch of road for a 20 minute effort between 2 towns. I still ended up on people's bumpers as we came into town just as the 20 minutes ended. What was depressing was tapering and taking a day off work to do the test and I ended up at the exact number (220 FTP) as I was already doing on 2x20' intervals leading up to that test.

http://thecyclingaddiction.blogspot.com/...nual-reflection.html
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Re: FTP long time stuck [ In reply to ]
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Wow!! I ramble too much on my posts. :-)

My main point on the two posts were to those like me that seem to top out at a very low FTP to be encouraged by other aspects of training and performance. While I may not have the FTP or watts/kg that I would like I am very content to keep training to keep the other performance aspects that I gained.

I hope others stay encouraged. I've run into a few over the years that have become so discouraged because they had such high hopes or someone told them that ALL people can reach a 300+ FTP that they let it get to them and faded from the scene. I have come to love cycling training (indoor and outdoor) that I cannot see quitting. It is partly the frustration that drives me to keep working and keep tweaking the plan if necessary.
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Re: FTP long time stuck [Felt_Rider] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for your posts. And yes, i guess i see people around here spouting 300 watt ftp like its a beginner power. I have no idea how people sit on said power. My only recourse is i have beaten people in tris in bike legs with power readings of 275 as an example, and my stages will say 230 watts, yet im faster than them. However using trainerroad virtual power as an indicator, i cannot break that 260 mark. im 160 pounds so no lightweight and hoping a dedicated bike offseason will see me improve. If nothing else i will enjoy road racing season in that tri offseason. I will also be happy though if other things happen like you said, more endurance, maybe improved ability to hold a good run split? etc
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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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IamSpartacus wrote:
thanks for your posts. And yes, i guess i see people around here spouting 300 watt ftp like its a beginner power. I have no idea how people sit on said power. My only recourse is i have beaten people in tris in bike legs with power readings of 275 as an example, and my stages will say 230 watts, yet im faster than them. However using trainerroad virtual power as an indicator, i cannot break that 260 mark. im 160 pounds so no lightweight and hoping a dedicated bike offseason will see me improve. If nothing else i will enjoy road racing season in that tri offseason. I will also be happy though if other things happen like you said, more endurance, maybe improved ability to hold a good run split? etc

W/Kg isn't as important in Tris as W/CdA.
If you are aero, and efficient, and can actually HOLD your aero position for the entirety of your ride, you can easily outsplit stronger riders on the bike.

And as has been said, even if you don't necessarily bump up the FTP that much, being able to hold a higher % of it for longer, and/or feeling fresher coming off the bike, etc -
all contribute to an overall faster race.

3.5 W/Kg is pretty solid, FWIW.
4+ W/Kg and you're talking fairly elite (by Tri standards) bike splits.


float , hammer , and jog

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Re: FTP long time stuck [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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IamSpartacus wrote:
thanks for your posts. And yes, i guess i see people around here spouting 300 watt ftp like its a beginner power. I have no idea how people sit on said power. My only recourse is i have beaten people in tris in bike legs with power readings of 275 as an example, and my stages will say 230 watts, yet im faster than them. However using trainerroad virtual power as an indicator, i cannot break that 260 mark. im 160 pounds so no lightweight and hoping a dedicated bike offseason will see me improve. If nothing else i will enjoy road racing season in that tri offseason. I will also be happy though if other things happen like you said, more endurance, maybe improved ability to hold a good run split? etc

This will hopefully be a lot of fun.

And good racing acumen can really make up for a lower (relatively) FTP. I got to a Cat 1 on like...4.2 w/kg. I wasn't winning TTs or making any solo breaks, but I quickly learned how to be very efficient in the pack and put my strengths to good use.
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