Thank you for sharing, I actually found it all very interesting to read. Especially the metabolic testing to determine how much gels he has to take at a certain wattage.. Would there be a way to guestimate this from a lactate threshold test or something as well?

I recently did my first lactate threshold test on the bike (started cycling/triathlon February/March 2017), starting at 120W and going up 40W every 3'. At 66.2kg 1m70 I failed at just over 2' of the 360W step, giving a max. of 348W at 174 bpm with 13,1mmol lactate. At 4mmol I'm at 265W at 165bpm.

I did the test to have a bit of guidance during training this Winter, but also because I did my first ITT in August where I performed better then I expected so I wanted to know what kind of values I'm capable of since I don't have a PM on my bike. 3 laps on a 4.43km course, 19'24" so an average of 41.26km/h according to my Garmin. Average HR 161 and max. 170. Based on the lactate threshold test, the dokter said I would have been doing 280-300W for almost 20' so let's say i'm at an FTP of 270-275? Playing around with Best Bike Split gave me something of 295-305W to get that time. So my FTP is higher then 0.73-0.75 of VO2max power? Or my CdA is quite a bit lower then what BBS estimates me at?

Sorry if I high jack you thread a bit, you seem really well versed about the subject I'm really interested about :p

I'm pretty conservative on how low I run the glycogen stores as well. Don't think it's greedy or overcautious, just the right approach if you don't have access to state of the art physiological testing and are therefore having to make quite a few guesstimates in your calculations. Of course it depends on context as well, if you're hellbent on a podium or KQ and don't mind the risk of bonking, then you can be much more aggressive with your nutrition strategy.

 
Hello

I'm not a coach, or a nutritionist, or a biomechanic PhD, just interested and working these subjects (and some others) as an amateur :-) but can try to help.

about your test :
many ways to measure VO2max or associated power (lets call it MVO2P for MaxVO2Power). Depending on the protocols, different results.
From my discussions with biomechanics and physio PhDs, apparently a 20w step each 2mn is better than 40w every 3mn, not sure how results are different.
Your MVO2P is probably around 350 watts indeed. Or a bit higher ?

your FTP :
depending on your genetic and training profile, it can differ, but 75% of MVO2P is a first guess : so 262 w ?
Also, FTP is generally around 4mmol/L lactate, which apparently for you is 265 watts. So, if measured correctly, it does confirm a FTP around 260 / 265 watts.

your 20mn max power :
generally you can add 5% to FTP (FTP being max for an hour) : so 275 watts ?

CdA, rolling resistance :
cannot comment as I do not have enough data (your position, TT profile, any braking, ...). But you are light and not too tall, and from a quick simulation 270w / 275w is compatible with your time (if TT position, relatively flat and little braking involved).

Nutrition :
I noticed that my CH / fat consumption (from previous measurements) PER WATT is similar to Cameron Wurf curve (bottom right graph), at same percentage of MVO2P. Only few % difference. Bike wise.
Might be similar for you. And other endurance trained bikers ?
You can calculate that way :
Let`s take 60% of MVO2P (a bit left of CH / fat curve crossing, near Cam Wurf IM race pace, and possibly near your HIM race pace)
Cam MVO2P around 490w, 60% is 295w
From this bottom right graph, Cam CH consumption at this % is 120g/hour (read on right side scale, with a near 4kcal/g ratio to left side scale, typical for CH).
Your MVO2P possibly 350w, 60% probably 210w.
Your CH consumption at 210w is 120x(210/295) (or 120 x 350/490) so probably around 85 grams per hour.

In short, for a given % of your MVO2P, you look at the point on the CH curve corresponding to Cam Wurf same %, and you multiply the result by 0,71 then have an approximation of your CH consumption at this rate.

Work also for Fat, but use scale on the left side, in kcal/hour, then transfer to grams (1 gram of fat is approx 9 kcal).

I have access to INSCYD tests and the data it produces so can give a couple on insights to this data.

From those charts Lactate Threshold (FTP) is actually around 380W

For the fueling calculations, only glycogen stores from active muscle mass is used in the calculations. As for running them tight, guys like Cam with that much experience with knowing what and how much they can take would mean you could definitely run those numbers a little tighter. Plus he is racing to win, so you tend to push the limits a bit more as well.

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hoppersportsperformance.com

You are right.

Not having precise info, better take some margin.

Plus, going slower (% of FTP), it is easier to eat a bit more, keeping glyco level higher.

Thanks for the precision and info.

I was wandering why Cam (and coaches) is/are considering CH consumption rate significantly lower in running than in biking (100g/h vs 132 g/h) ?
From the chart (bottom right) % of MVO2P is moving from approx 62% in biking to 56% in running,

Is it because Cam was planning to "overdo" a bit the bike to get Kona record ? Not sure as its TSS for bike part in Kona does not look excessive (around 290 ?)

Or is it because he still does not have the muscles and tendons to support its cardio engine on the run part ? Still on progression phase on this part ? Andrew Talansky is on the same progression scale, but only at first step while Cam is few years further but not yet there ?


Apart from these nutrition/pacing elements, interesting to see Cam Wurf current training on Strava, with a lot of rides around 40 to 50% of MVO2P (base endurance).

Including this one with Geraint Thomas in Santa Monica : https://www.strava.com/activities/2065370987
Nice picture of Cam old black Bolide along with G's old UK Flag Bolide (old = rim brakes :-)

No Problems at all. I'll do my best to answer these questions but for the most part I can only speculate. I'm not a sports scientist so my terminology might be slightly off.

Now all this data gathered was for IM Zurich and not Kona, although as he did ride similar power we can presume the numbers will be similar depending on changes in VO2max and VLamax. Slight changes will change fat and carb rate burn rates/ percentages at a given wattage etc. There was definitely enough time to make some improvements in these areas especially VLamax.

How they came to pacing strategies for IM Zurich most likely involved some reverse engineering and playing around with numbers. He had a goal of running a sub 3 marathon off the bike so they would have looked what his carb requirements were to run at that speed then worked backwards from there to see what kind of bike intensity he could hold with the leftover fuel available.

We can't make a lot of conclusions around his running as INSCYD never released his run data. Basically he would have carried out the exact same test for running (and swimming) as per the cycling but with a VO2 master on as well to capture extra data related to economy. This is because economy rates are a bigger factor in these sports compared to cycling. With this run data there will be a complete new set of VO2 and Vlamax, a new lactate curve, and new fuel consumption rates so all numbers for the run will be driven solely from that data.

Now in part 3 of the article series Cam himself gives us a little insight saying "The reality is I’m not a good runner and my riding speed is actually relative to the riding effort of my rivals". From that my takeaway is that his running economy is rubbish. He's actually not over biking and slowing down on the bike isn't really going to help him run faster. Think you're are on the money with the Muscles not conditioned enough yet to handle the aerobic engine. Also running mechanics is going to play a factor. If you look nat his background, basically all of his high performance sporting life he's been in no load baring sports with a hinged hip. It's known that just running more will improve economy, that's why we are seeing him slowly progress his run times each race. Nothing to do with his engine size improving, he's just becoming more economical and closer to his potential. I would say this is a big reason why he's seeked the help on the Nike breaking2 team as these guys have sent years looking at economies in runners.


As for the training with G, Tim Kerrison now has both G and Froome do a lot of IM style sessions on the bike this time of year. They use it as base for the more specific GC work later in the year. There's a few things going on there physiology wise but its about maximising the aerobic engine essentially. For Cam he's right in his fatmax zone so they are working on that system heavily there, potentially the same for G. I know hes put on a bit since winning the tour so they could be also keen on dropping a few kgs as well.


Between working with Tim Kerrison and then having Sebastian Webber as an advisor, it's a pretty damn knowledgeable pairing in the applied sport physiology/coaching world he has access to0. The athletes these 2 have worked with is mind blowing.

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hoppersportsperformance.com

Tell ya what I think and it applies to any "uber" biker. Transform yourself in to an uber-runner. Your starting point and priority better be the run on all levels. Then work back to accommodate the bike. Because the physiology of a great runner with not destroy the bike, but an unbalanced focus on the bike, harms the run.

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

Lame. Races should just start at T1 and end at T2. No one wants to bother with the other nonsense.

Yeah,

let`s create WMC (World Monoathlon Company), let's develop it with the "CarbonMan" brand, and sell it to Wanda for 500M$...

... euh... damn, already exist, it is called UCI.

The "Patrick Lange effect" ?

That's what Wurf has been doing. Problem being that if you have the massive engine of a guy who has been an Olympic rower and professional road cyclist, then it takes a long time and a lot of work for the legs to catch up to the engine and be able to handle you going full throttle on the run

At a much lower level I've had similar issues. Rowed at a decent level from my teens onwards, transitioned over a period of a few years to road cycling in my mid 20s, only really tried running in any way seriously in my early 30s when I got into tris. The fitness I had from rowing/cycling was far more than my running legs could handle with relatively low historic mileage and not great running form. I could go fairly fast (sub 40 minute 10k), but with a very high chance of injury every time I pushed too hard. My first couple of years of tri I would only race a couple of times a season because I had about a 50% chance of injuring myself racing (not helped by having an ability learnt in rowing to dig very deep on race day), and was regularly picking up injuries from going too hard in training as well. This compounded the problem, because then I was trying to catch up my run fitness and going too hard again. Eventually figured it out (thanks largely to reading the BarryP plan), and switched to doing much more running volume at easier paces.

Wurf is in a different league to me as an athlete (obviously!), but the point is the same in that he can't just start training like an uber-runner, he'll break himself. He's got the benefit of some of the best advisors available to help him build up to that point, but seems he's still got a way to go.

Yeah you know it. I "picked up" running again in my mid-50's. But my problem was I hadn't run at all for 15 years due to a scarred and damaged ankle joint. Also had basically two dysfunctional legs due to anaerobic thrashing I gave them 30 years hockey and skiing. Those beginning days were torture. It was painful to run just straight-up. And if I was able to run off the bike, it was a hurt like none other.

The process I had to go through to get to today I documented on here over the years.

But I see the similarities with Lionel and others. Yes Lange and Frodo are great runners and represent the standard, their execution makes that apparent - or you would think so??

1. Get into the gym, supervised / run preparation training. This goes a long way to injury prevention and optimizes the body to move in the run. If you did this full time with run training 50/50
2. Unfortunately, the bike has to gather some dust during the period imo. Swimming is fine.

I'm still quite slow and on the cusp of injury at any moment, but at least I've evolved to being upright

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Training Tweets: https://twitter.com/Jagersport_com
FM Sports: http://fluidmotionsports.com

 
Thanks for all the additional informations.

Would love to see the curves for the run and swim, must be very interesting to compare to bike (with lactate threshold as a ref, for example).

Regarding running adaptation : it is interesting to see that after 3 years he reached and bested the 3h marathon time (in IM, now 2h52).
Talansky with probably a similar engine (max VO2 capacity above 80 ml/mn/kg) was running 3h30 for his first year.
Targeting 3h10 / 3h15 this year, then also going sub 3 in 2020 ?

Regarding G : yes, I read the Cam blog, very interesting read. Apparently G is planning IM in 3-5 years and making some swim and run training already in winter. I love G, really. Great guy.
https://cameronwurf.blogspot.com

Cam story is also very interesting, found this really good :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz_qoxqDMLw