Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Can the USA/UK govern themselves?
Quote | Reply
Serious question
As a Brit one of the things I despair about the car crash that is Brexit, is that not only will it be a disaster but basically nothing else has gotten done for the last 3yrs as politicians are singularly obsessed with this one issue. And with Theresa May on a daily mission to keep her job, you think she comes back from Brussels and immediately has the energy to discuss Britain's transport strategy for the next 20 years?
Where is the planning on anything? Its like we have tread water for 3 years whilst the rest of the world moves on - and in corporate world if you stand still you die. Same as the wealth of nations - history has shown this.....

Same as in USA - you think Trump pivots from ranting against Cohen/Mueller etc, then taking legal advice on his personal posisiton and then immediately is ready to focus 100% on the business of government?

Or maybe they are just much, much better at compartmentalising things than us mortals?!
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Here in USA, the national empetus in the 60's to land a man (sorry human being) on the moon was the last and only forward looking plan I've seen in my lifetime.
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bespoke wrote:


Same as in USA - you think Trump pivots from ranting against Cohen/Mueller etc, then taking legal advice on his personal posisiton and then immediately is ready to focus 100% on the business of government?

Or maybe they are just much, much better at compartmentalising things than us mortals?!

You seem to be paying to much attention to the media and not looking at whats happening.

The Trump administration has gotten many bills passed and changes to how our country operates. Not much talk about it but he has done many (some think long term disastrous) things.

I view it like a good magician. You hear about and see what he wants you to see (though in Trumps case his misdirections are getting him in trouble) but behind the scenes there is a lot of things changes.

Just Triing
Triathlete since 9:56:39 AM EST Aug 20, 2006.
Be kind English is my 2nd language. My primary language is Dave it's a unique evolution of English.
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [DavHamm] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yeah - when I was writing it I was actually thinking he has done a lot despite this. But we can agree he would have done more if he would have been less pre-occupied? Not saying that would be a good thing!

But I can assure you in Britain; Sweet FA has been done in 3 years. No one wants to invest political capital on anything but Brexit; and two sides of the same party are so divided they would not work together even if they had energy to.

Classic example; our creaking Heathrow airport is in desperate need of another run-way to ease congestion; its becoming absolutely critical (been critical for 10 yrs now) and will affect investment/GDP etc. Decision has been kicked down the road AGAIN
And I cant blame May for that - there are only so many fires you can fight at once....
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bespoke wrote:
Serious question
As a Brit one of the things I despair about the car crash that is Brexit, is that not only will it be a disaster

I'm Australian and will quite happily stick my hand up and say, I have no idea about Brexit. But what I don't get, is how every man and his dog has suddenly become an expert on European economics. I worked in the UK for a few years and have friends and family over there. The number of people posting on FB re Brexit that really have no clue is astounding! Why, if it's such a bad idea, did so many people vote to leave Europe? Speaking to my Uncle who lives in the Midlands, his attitude was one of bitter frustration. He's on minimum wage, which has barely risen in 20 years, minimum wage in Australia is almost double. There seems to be a massive gulf between the lowest income earners and the highest income earners, an underclass we don't really get in Australia. When things are so shit, how can you blame people for voting to leave. It can't get much worse for them. High cost of living, low wages, high unemployment...
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You may need to open your eyes more, there is certainly a gulf between rich and poor here in Oz. There are certainly pockets of poverty and many, many people despair about housing affordability, job security and the future in general. Maybe not to the same extent (I really don't know much about the UK) but that same frustration and anxiety exists.

As far as governance and getting things done, you'd no doubt agree that we are far from the poster child for politicians getting on with the job rather than worrying about their own.
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Quote:
When things are so shit, how can you blame people for voting to leave. It can't get much worse for them. High cost of living, low wages, high unemployment...

... and how does Brexit change that? It can certainly get worse. Apparently your uncle has been working for 20 years. Try unemployment....
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [oldandslow] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
oldandslow wrote:
Quote:

When things are so shit, how can you blame people for voting to leave. It can't get much worse for them. High cost of living, low wages, high unemployment...


... and how does Brexit change that? It can certainly get worse. Apparently your uncle has been working for 20 years. Try unemployment....

Yeah it could get worse, but it's a risk desperate people are willing to take.
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bespoke wrote:
Serious question
basically nothing else has gotten done for the last 3yrs ... Where is the planning on anything? Its like we have tread water for 3 years whilst the rest of the world moves on - and in corporate world if you stand still you die. Same as the wealth of nations - history has shown this...
It is interesting to look at Italy. For at least 20 years, probably more, there was effectively no functional national government. Lots of heated rhetoric, coalition governments would typically last less than a year then new elections would be called. Yet during this period, the Italian economy prospered, I think they moved up at least one spot in the G7 rankings until later falling behind Brazil & India. And who does Berlusconi remind you of?

So domestically, maybe a scandal-plagued, bi-polar weak central government is not the end of the world. Of course, Italy did and does not have the ability to start trade wars and actual shooting wars...

Brian

Gonna buy a fast car, put on my lead boots, take a long, long drive
I may end up spending all my money, but I'll still be alive
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
zedzded wrote:
[Why, if it's such a bad idea, did so many people vote to leave Europe?

The same reason why working-class people voted Trump. Someone did a masterful job of convincing them that their best interest is to vote against their own best interest.

Remember - It's important to be comfortable in your own skin... because it turns out society frowns on wearing other people's
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
They do just enough to keep the populace away from revolution, then there is a vote, and life continues like a real change was made... The other day I was wondering if the US would be better with just one political party because maybe something serious like the debt could be reduced. It's a bad Shakespearean tragedy being played out over hundreds (in the US) of years and the citizens are playing the part of the fool.

"The great pleasure in life is doing what people say you cannot do."
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It's pretty clear the UK cant
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think one of the reasons I find this interesting is I grew up as an expat kid in Nigeria where there is no functioning government and endless corruption. And they are replaced and a new group comes in, and it goes on and on
And then we moved to Singapore and they have had the same ruling party for 60 years. And the party is pretty open with saying the people don't really know what they want so we will decide for them - and in some respects they have done a good job; its certainly a more prosperous and better educated place than Britain; and there is an argument to say that you can take long term decisions that over ride short term pain. Back to my Heathrow airport example; a pesky thing like public opinion of minority interests can be ignored for the benefit of all....
In the '80s when corporate Japan was booming one of the explanations was they invested for the long term and did not have to worry about quarterly earnings and reports that US companies did....

And then you look at the UK now and its clear that MPs and the PM are thinking on a day to day to day basis and this will have real repercussions (ironically will probably come home to roost by time a new government inherits the mess)
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
zedzded wrote:
[Why, if it's such a bad idea, did so many people vote to leave Europe?


The same reason why working-class people voted Trump. Someone did a masterful job of convincing them that their best interest is to vote against their own best interest.

Yep!! Wonder who that someone is??
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
zedzded wrote:
[Why, if it's such a bad idea, did so many people vote to leave Europe?


The same reason why working-class people voted Trump. Someone did a masterful job of convincing them that their best interest is to vote against their own best interest.

Did you vote your own best interest?
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [Guffaw] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Guffaw wrote:
zedzded wrote:
[Why, if it's such a bad idea, did so many people vote to leave Europe?


The same reason why working-class people voted Trump. Someone did a masterful job of convincing them that their best interest is to vote against their own best interest.

17 million stupid people..... that's a lot of stupid people in the country.

Don't you think disillusionment, resentment, frustration and even desperation play a part? You live in a town with high unemployment, high crime, high cost of living, few prospects of a good, happy life, yet you want someone to vote to maintain their status quo? 2 buttons, vote no for shit life, vote yes for fuck it, lets jump and see what happens.... are you really that surprised with the "yes" vote?

Perhaps some of you are out of touch with your own country. I travelled a bit when I was over there and there were towns I went to that were bordering on third world. Entire estates abandoned, shops boarded up, desolate high streets, graffiti and rubbish everywhere and you're going to try and suggest life is going to get worse if people vote to leave Europe. How is it going to get worse?
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [zedzded] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
People voted for leave for swathe of reasons; total neglect by elected Mp's, successive governments on both sides ignoring large parts of the country

I've good friends who worked for ministers, in downing Street and now one is Private Secretary to a former PM

For years I relentlessly took the piss out of them because they simply never cared about Labour areas outside of London as those places would never vote tory so could vote for no one else

Then along came ukip and a resurgent SNP and it all now looks very different.

From thatcher destroying the unions in the early 80's, those areas despised the tories and hell could literally freeze over and they'd never vote for them

Then in 97, along came Teflon Tony and he moved to the right of the Middle and these areas still voted for him

Cameron decided that the best way to appease approximately 49 members of his Westminster party, the ERG, that he'd promise a referendum in his election manifesto

Then hubris, a total disbelief that people would vote to leave, a lack of preparation, no real consideration of the question, no strategy for a leave outcome and we are where we are

I will reiterate, I don't think we will leave. A50 will be extended and a second ref is looking increasingly more likely
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [Andrewmc] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andrew - you think in 10-15 years who of the rogues gallery be viewed least kindly by the history books; May, JRM, Boris, Cameron, Corbyn?

Personally for me its Cameron - a mixture of stupidity, hubris and cowardice that we will take decades to recover from......

Its astonishing that he has been allowed to slink off whilst others need to clear the mess
Quote Reply
Re: Can the USA/UK govern themselves? [bespoke] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think ALL of them with the exception, or limited exception of MOGG are cunts. All of them are duplicitous, lying, scheming, malign cunts

May for simply be too stupid to insult who still as of last Thursday told 27 leaders that "Brexit means Brexit"

Cameron for being a bigger appease than chamberlin

Boris for placing his career ahead of basically any principle. This specific cunt last week said he felt completely responsible for any job losses. Total bollocks. A good friend has taken 1bn in manufacturing out of the UK and boris could give zero fucks

Corbyn is what he is, so close to power that he will not take a position in case it alienates any votes.

Mogg sort of gets a pass. He has never pretended to hold any other views. He's never vacillated about one or other, he has rolled back on the value of a second ref but he is the only one that's not really changed his view.

On balance though, every single one of them deserves a pox on their houses
Quote Reply