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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [flogazo] [ In reply to ]
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Good post!

Looks like he could actually be 8 to 10 meters back in the photo and a bit to the side behind someone who is blocking ?

While vigilantics can be entertaining, you need airtight evidence otherwise itll backfire as self destructive click bait.

Instead of "I saw someone throw away a paper bag" you'd need "here is the paper bag I retrieved later to find filled with unmarked 100 dollar bills and a moustache and passports"

And even then, wasn't there a site that posted pics of cheaters, and people could email or pay to have thier photo removed... Didn't he get sued to bankruptcy?

you have a good thing going, gotta weigh up the risks here




flogazo wrote:
I like calling out the drafters.
Just be sure to do it well. That would mean
  • two pictures of the same pair from a side-on view
  • within a 25 second timeframe
  • with the second guy clearly drafting

In your example picture, the rear guy could just be starting to overtake and in any case he is not actually drafting very obviously!


If you look at the distance between the points where the two wheels (of one bike) touch the ground you realize that that is about two small rectangles, but makes up approx 1m (wheelbase of a tri-bike). So how Often could you fit that distance in the space between the two riders? #Geometry



KR,
Flo
edit: You'd have to subtract one wheel diameter from that 8.32 meters I guess because I was working with the contact points on the ground...

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Last edited by: lacticturkey: Dec 5, 18 10:28
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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Post them, Talbot. Burn them to the ground.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [phog] [ In reply to ]
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Pissing on the bike should be allowed when the on behind is drafting
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [talbotcox] [ In reply to ]
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There's a reason why the ITU has moved to videos for everything. Static pictures crumble when it comes to protest or appeal, because Drafting has both a distance and a time component. While a static photo can allow you to estimate the distance component , you miss the time component (i.e. time to pass through a draft zone, or to drop back after you are passed). This is why policing drafting is hard, because in order to be able to make the call, you have to be within range to confirm the violation, and then count off the time to pass through before calling an infraction.

Policing drafting in a race is a bit like policing drinking in public. If you see or hear a police officer, you tuck away your flask, but once they are out of viewing range, you pull it back out and keep drinking... I would say that the majority of drafting (in the AG ranks) is unintentional, either because of ignorance of the rules or not being able to accurately judge the distance, not to say this is excusable, but that there is not an intent to gain an advantage. But then you get the people who are knowingly drafting, because they realize the odds of getting caught are not high, given that as soon as they hear a motorcycle, they spread out and won't get nailed. It's this category of behavior which is more troubling, but hard to safely eradicate (since it either means reducing the field size, or drastically increasing the number of officials on motorcycles on the course, or looking at options using drones/aircraft or track mounted cameras to be able to catch the behavior...

There's no harm in posting photos, but I would leave them devoid of accusations, because they are nothing more than circumstantial evidence, rather than proof of a violation. Now if you're shooting video from a mobile position, and you have sequences where people are drafting beyond allowable passing times, that's much stronger evidence of the behavior...

Now the whole course cutting thing, when that is witnessed/photographed, that should be shared immediately with race officials... Where it can be reliably established, that's pretty cut and dry as a DQ... The shady disposal of a brown paper bag, that's tricky, unless you then pick it out of the garbage and verify the contents, and potentially provide that info to doping authorities... Years ago, I was working at a collegiate sports venue, and when cleaning up post event, we found syringes and vials of a banned substance in the bleachers. We photographed the products and bagged them, reported it to our national anti-doping body along with a picture illustrating the team that had been set-up in that area of the bleachers. It led to targeted testing of athletes from their team, I don't remember if anyone got caught... They never asked for the vials themselves, they just instructed us to safely dispose of them.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [Trauma] [ In reply to ]
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Sometimes you can pick out drafting in timing mats. 1 sec = 10m distance at 36km/h, at 40km it is 0.9 sec and at 45 km/h this is 0.8 sec.
AT 145k Elias was 0.86 sec behind Hanson, Andujar 1.18 behind Elias.
At all the others the difference was >1 sec (but under 3 sec). So borderline at 145k but at other timing mats legal, but definitely riding within a zone they would have advantage. Too bad the tracker data from Kona is gone from the app now, would have been interesting to see the time differences in the group of Lange.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [TriStart] [ In reply to ]
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TriStart wrote:
Sometimes you can pick out drafting in timing mats. 1 sec = 10m distance at 36km/h, at 40km it is 0.9 sec and at 45 km/h this is 0.8 sec.
AT 145k Elias was 0.86 sec behind Hanson, Andujar 1.18 behind Elias.
At all the others the difference was >1 sec (but under 3 sec). So borderline at 145k but at other timing mats legal, but definitely riding within a zone they would have advantage. Too bad the tracker data from Kona is gone from the app now, would have been interesting to see the time differences in the group of Lange.
None of that proves anything. It just shows that at a single point in time, it's likely riders were in the draft zone of another. Without two points of reference or an elapsed-time reference you can't definitively say anything.

Without transponders on bikes that can communicate distance with other transponders in real time, you're at a dead end for eliminating drafting. As everyone has said, referees can only do so much, they leave and the draft-pack resumes. If each participant could be outfitted with a transponder that recognizes the other transponders within a certain range, and the unit begins tracking, you could put a group of computer guys in a room to write the software that analyzes the data and flags draft instances. There would be a lot of technology and design work to it, but we have the tech - you just need a group motivated enough to front the resources (read: $$$) to design the system and implement it.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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It proves they were close to each other each time, and once borderline legal drafting distance. Indeed you can't infer from it if they were legally drafting as Elias might have been overtaking Hanson. But Elias was never ahead of Hanson, in fact, their bike finish times differ 0.52 sec, with Elias behind Hanson. It does prove, in my view, that those behind Hanson were trying to get as much legal advantage as possible.
If you have several timing mats in a 500m - 1000m stretch and a time based draft zone it would be easy to pick out those who draft to get advantage.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [TriStart] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not sure what's more costly? 180km of timing mats or the skynet solution.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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ripple wrote:
Without transponders on bikes that can communicate distance with other transponders in real time, you're at a dead end for eliminating drafting. As everyone has said, referees can only do so much, they leave and the draft-pack resumes. If each participant could be outfitted with a transponder that recognizes the other transponders within a certain range, and the unit begins tracking, you could put a group of computer guys in a room to write the software that analyzes the data and flags draft instances. There would be a lot of technology and design work to it, but we have the tech - you just need a group motivated enough to front the resources (read: $$$) to design the system and implement it.

The thing is that sort of tech has many useful applications outside of non-draft bike racing. These sort of sensors (particularly with the communication aspect) would be valuable in all sorts of autonomous vehicle, and drone swarm applications. Right now I think most of those devices use one sided lidar/radar to keep themselves a safe distance from other objects.

Honestly if I were interested in developing this tech I would be going to triathlon (draft and non-draft) because there are potentially useful test scenarios (10's-100's of people close to each other but really not interested in knocking bars), not because I thought it would be the primary market.
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [ripple] [ In reply to ]
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Most courses are 2 loops, so that halves it. And instead of 1 timing mat per zone they could lay out 4. It's just one option, and not water tight, but it would help.
Any solution would carry a cost, and no solution would be water tight (what if your transponder, or the one in front of you, runs out of batteries?).
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Re: Post my drafting and cheating pics? Pros & Cons [TriStart] [ In reply to ]
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agreed, timing mats is the same as a still photo... circumstantial at best... You could computed that someone was within the draft zone, but not the time component of how long they were in there, because they could be legitimately passing or dropping back after being passed. Reliable transponders on the bike would be the only way around it, a or a continuous series of timing mats, if you wanted some sort of hands/eyes off solution...
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