Damn, well timed. 52, a diesel not a greyhound, 210 up from 190, 6'3. 48 is when it hit me - new job, metabolism down, moved west, lots of reason to not run. But I like it. So...

The plan now is fairly simple: Run/Walk 4-5 times a week, 30-40 min each. Walks are hilly (Seattle), runs try to be flat, sometimes on a treadmill with 0.5% grade. Hokas for the win. Then, elliptical or bike for some non-impact. 3- times a week, again, 30-40 min each. Strength training 3-4x for legs and core, 30 min each. And of course, there's work and social stuff so I end up dumping 1 or 2 sessions, so looking for a weekly total of 7 hours, sometimes with one day off.

The beauty of this is that I can take what the day gives. Sore? Elliptical. Strong/rested? Hit up 8K with some rollers. Not feeling it? Sleep. It's a plan.

ETA: No injuries, no nagging anything since 2001.

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- I do all my own stunts

Nice to meet you Barry P! Kinda like pulling back the curtain...And mid 40's is NOT old, FTR.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZR64EF3OpA

You've done a lot of good for a lot of people, in helping them realize that a slow ramp in volume can be a great thing for running. That program is simple, yet structured. Many thanks from me personally and from the many runners that I've coached over the years. I always started with a modified base which included a variation of your program. And since I'm a cardiologist, I very often have to push people into doing appropriate amounts of regular aerobic activity=the American College of Cardiology recommends 6 sessions of 20-30 minutes/week. Something that gets your heart rate up a bit and breathing a tad harder, but you know, can still 'carry on a conversation'. (*My age is 57 by the way).

I'm not sub-elite like you were, just a regular guy who has learned that consistency and structured training works. I never ran in HS. Didn't make varsity baseball but I did play soccer in HS and in adult leagues both indoor and outdoor. Played hardball/baseball locally in 'adult' leagues and finally, when patients noticed the doctor was bringing in McDonalds, I decided to work on my fitness-at age 40. I began running. Self coached and ultimately ran my best after 5-7 years of consistent training. Best mile 5:23 age 47. Best marathon 3:15 age 45. Boston twice. I've coached/written programs for at least 1/2 dozen people to qualify for Boston, and all were successful, except one. (*still working on her, she missed by a few minutes this year after they changed the time standards-completely unfair)

Maintaining a run base is critical for run performance. Not so much for other things and I take care of lots of people who maintain their fitness in non-running sports. Consistency is the key thing that you seem to have forgotten about. Intensity is nice, hills can be good, but consistency is the most important thing, IMO. And as we get older (yes, I remember my 40's, back when I was running 'real mileage' @ 40-50 mpw), injuries can take a huge toll, not to mention the fact that our metabolism slows a bit and it takes extra work to keep the weight right. Muscle loss (not atrophy) starts in the 50's, so doing some core/strength work regularly is one additional way to help overall, in terms of fitness and strength.

But to get to the question at hand-what to do?


Well, what exactly are your goals? You seem to like the way you look at 190#'s, which will not make you a sleek runner. Is it fitness or fast that you are looking for. And what sport are you still playing that requires run fitness? Are you doing any specific training to help in that sport?

I certainly agree that just doing hills as frequently as you are doing is going to put some serious strain on calves/hamstrings and achilles tendons. And it seems that you, like many of us, have some mechanical body issues. (*I can relate now with one leg a bit shorter than the other after the titanium rod was placed in my tibia). Orthotics and other things can help align things a bit but sometimes bodies cannot take the pounding over long periods of time. Run specific fitness can only be obtained one way but there are other lesser impact things that can help a bit. Cycling and swimming can help in recovery and allow you to progress your run fitness. Much of it is still about stress/rest and recovery. And do not discount running on soft surfaces or a TM with a cushioned deck.

And I do not think Dr. Daniels would agree with this comment of yours- "Doing some calculations based off of Daniels' Formula, 10 minutes of hard hills + 50 minutes of fast walking is similar to a 7 mile easy run". Nope, not at all.



So, here's my suggestion....wait for it...


Try doing your own program again, this time with added focus on: strength/core work/weight loss and only a little bit of stretching. Add a few hills (Lydiard would smile) but far less than you are doing. And do what most people here on ST continually say: run some a bit fast/hard and a lot easy. But---be consistent and don't get injured.

Report back in a few months.

Dale

sounds like what you are doing is working, but I didn't quite understand the post. Why not just do the BarryP plan?? Lose weight, train frequently almost all at an easy pace and you should get faster, no?

Because running on flat ground, even just a little beat, beats me up.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

you have the expectations of a younger man-adjust this mentality, sir

Thanks for posting your update, BarryP! I used your plan to build up my mileage and speed a couple of years ago - next year I'll be your age, so I'm reading with interest the tweaks you've made to your own training.

I'm 52 years old, started running about 10 years ago. No competitive sports ever, really (my fieldhockey (*) team in my teens was hardly competitive). Later kept myself a bit active bit cycling everywhere as one does in Holland, and I ran about once a year. I came to North America at age 32 weighing probably 85kg (187lb at 6' even) and I ballooned to 230 by the time my youngest son was born 8 years later. That's when I decided I needed to start doing something about it or I wouldn't see my son's university graduation. Dabbled with weightlifting and stumbled on running two years later (and triathlon after that). And I turned out to be decent at it.

A lot happened over those 10 years I have been running, but this last season has been my most successful ever. I've been running more than ever before (I hope to reach 2500km for the year), and I've been faster. I finished my first ever marathon and I PBed the half marathon - before this year I had never broken 1:30 for the half, and this year I finished two in 1:28-low and split the marathon at 1:29 and a bit. This may be underwhelming for some of you but it gets me decent placing in the races I run here in Southern Ontario (Toronto area). I'm about 157lb now. My 5km PB is from late 2017 and sits at 19:30; I haven't been able to run a suitable 5km race this year but I think I can hit a low 19 now.

What I am doing is basically 4 days running a week and 3 days cycling (or 4/2 if I have a rest day, which is every 10 days or so). During the marathon build it became 5/2 (or 4/2). The rides take the place of recovery runs, and one of them (if I'm doing 3 a week) will be an interval ride (I didn't do those during the marathon build).

The running part is two (or three) recovery runs, a long run with target race pace tempos (so for the marathon I was doing 5-10km tempos at 4:15-4:20/km), and a track session, which had a lot of kilos, miles, and 2 kilo repeats, all at best-case 5km pace (i.e. my 5km pace on a day where everything goes right). That was about 3:50-3:55/km. In the marathon build I did an extra medium-length run with MP tempos in it.

Recovery was anything between 40 and 75 minutes of easy shuffling - my target was 5:15 but I never got there; I was almost always too fast.

There was no strength or stretch work. Every year I say I'm going to do strength work in winter (this year is really going to be the year!) but it never happens, and I haven't stretched or used a roller in about 5 years.

I think what did it for me was the fact that I never ran really big weeks by using cycling as recovery. While it doesn't give you that running specificity, it's still beneficial for your aerobic system.

But then again I am probably in the reverse situation that you're in - you ran as a young man with a body that really wasn't supposed to run, while I didn't run with a body that seems to be more suited to it. But it does mean that getting old doesn't mean you have to give up on running hard. In my club there are about 10 late-40s/early-50s men and women that are still laying it down. And while we all have our niggles at times, the fact that we run and suffer together motivates.



(*) Fieldhockey is a men's (and women's) sport in Europe.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

"you have the expectations of a younger man-adjust this mentality, sir "


???

That's kind of the whole point of this thread. I'm doing what I can handle as a heavier 45 year old man instead of a young skinny runner. Someone asked "why no flat running." I answered that it beats me up, even a little bit, even slow.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

It's funny that instead of trusting a plan that you originally devised to help a younger version of you (for different reasons), you question why it won't work. Your starting point is different for you but similar to many, many others who have done it from: older, heavier, slower versions of themselves. You are now that older, heavier and slower version. Welcome to the club-many of us have already been there.

When returning to running, the body often does not like it. But, gradual pressures can be made and recovered from. If flat running 'beats you up'-go slower for less time with a quicker cadence (to avoid landing shock). Walk (on flat ground) in between jogging. This is actually the way I've come back from every single running injury. You also may need to figure out how to get past your biomechanical issues-?orthotics. Consider putting less strain on your body by running on a TM with cushioned deck or running on grass or a track.

The chassis, your body, is not used to pounding from added heaviness and that is accentuated by older muscles/tendons/ligaments and connective tissue that are going to be subjected to much larger forces than previously. You have to go slow and be consistent. It may 'beat you up' a bit but if you get disappointed and stop, then you will not achieve the goal. It actually takes desire and some work. There is no magic.

And Barry, you still haven't said what your actual goal is...


I've had motivated patients who start from a 300 pound frame and make it to jogging 5K's and losing ~100+ pounds because of health reasons. Running is for fun as well as fitness. And racing, can be challenging when comparing yourself to your AG peers rather than the race winners.




Congratulations! Terrific success with no injury is a testament to consistency, or picking your parents wisely. (No, we won't go into the genetics as ALL can make improvements up to their genetic potential, which few reach). Your program is sort of a modified HIIT with 2 harder runs. The LR includes race pace intervals and the med LR includes interval pace in them. Even your 'recovery' runs are somewhat fast and not really recovery. It's overall more like a 'medium intensity' program. Your true recovery is cycling which I think can be interchanged with recovery 'runs'.


And there is a cost to the cumulative effects of running....so starting later is somewhat beneficial to many.

"When returning to running, the body often does not like it. But, gradual pressures can be made and recovered from. If flat running 'beats you up'-go slower for less time with a quicker cadence (to avoid landing shock). Walk (on flat ground) in between jogging."

Dtoce, thanks for the input, but seriously, dude, read the OP. That's exactly what I'm doing. Its like, literally, the entire point of this thread. =)

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

I'm 64 and still making a go of it. I have one observation from my own recent experience that might help. I too run in Hokas. I used to train in Bondis and raced in Cliftons. Last spring, I bought a new pair of Bondis and the salesperson also talked me into trying a pair of Machs. I get so much less beat up running in the Machs. My knees love the Machs. So much so, that I rarely run in the Bondis. I took them out for a run last week and as soon as I got back I relegated them to the back of the closet (figuratively at least).

So the moral to the story is there may be a shoe change that will help.

BTW, you are a life long runner, so you may not benefit from this -- I found a PT that is good at diagnosing causes of recurring repetitive running injury. She prescribed a series of exercises for me that are now incorporated into my regular routine. I can feel the difference now when I run. This was done in a single visit. Anyway, a PT like her is GOLD. She gave me something that is helping me, but did not do the normal "I need to see you twice a week for the next two months (or until your health insurance coverage for PT runs out, whichever occurs first)" PT thing. If you could find someone like her, it might be a help.

And I echo what everyone else is saying -- thank you for the BarryP plan. I hope you can get your body back to where you can get back on it.

What exactly do you mean by the fact that running on flat ground is beating you up?

Does it hurt during the run? What hurts? how bad? Does it stop once you warm up or get progressively worse as you run? Are you limping? Can you still run? Do you come into work limping?

I guess I'm just used to dealing with the aches and pains of running as a 40-something year old...so I'm a little nonplussed. Then again, I've run myself into a few overuse injuries along the way and I'm OK with that.

That's a good point actually. Anecdote: we were running on the track - myself, a couple of other geezers and gals, and this 23 year-old prodigy runner. And we ask him WTH he is doing running with us, instead of with the pain train crushing it 200m further down the track. He's taking it easy because he's got this niggle. We prod some more, and realize he's having one of the same aches and pains we have getting out of bed and on the first couple of laps. For him those are warning signs for injury (and they may well be), for us it's just life.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

Yea, I don't mean to discount the issue, it's just that I personally have found that running is more about managing the pain at times rather than what my engine can put out. The days where there's no issues and I can feel myself flowing mile after mile are absolutely transcendental--so addictive.

That's probably why I lace up my shoes and go out when it's cold, wet and windy. Yea, that first mile is going to suck as I work out the kinks...but man, do the next 10 feel great.

"What exactly do you mean by the fact that running on flat ground is beating you up?

Does it hurt during the run? What hurts? how bad? Does it stop once you warm up or get progressively worse as you run? Are you limping? Can you still run? Do you come into work limping?

I guess I'm just used to dealing with the aches and pains of running as a 40-something year old...so I'm a little nonplussed. Then again, I've run myself into a few overuse injuries along the way and I'm OK with that. "


Chronic lower back pain.
Chronic knee pain.
Calves hurting so bad that I can't sleep.


This is above and beyond the usual "I'm old and achey."


Anyway, I can push it pretty hard on the hills without any of these problems.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

don't you think strenght training on your legs and core might heal most of your issues?

"damn dude when you'd get so old? oh wait I'm 2 yrs older"
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. . . AND, I remember when you were the new young buck on the race scene!

"Anyway it would be fun to put our heads together again and talk ideas on running as one ages"
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I for one would sure appreciate this! Age has given me more niggles, and less speed. Running is going down hill (pun) fast! Swimming and biking are hanging in there.


Please publish the old man's guide soon!

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David
* Ironman for Life! (Blog) * IM Everyday Hero Video * Daggett Shuler Law *
Disclaimer: I have personal and professional relationships with many athletes, vendors, and organizations in the triathlon world.

Have you had a professional opinion on exactly what the knee and lower back problem is? Do you have a diagnosis?

This. A generic geezer plan will only work if the geezer is at baseline health and not injured. You don't currently seem to be there.

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Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.

62, 6'2",~190. Got up to 50 mile last week with almost all running on hard concrete streets and sidewalks. Not ideal by any mean but the only thing my work schedule currently allows. Plan on doing my first 50K in three weeks. Got a left achilles heel that is burning and sore knees. Icing both which seems to work. Credit for being able to do decent mileage goes to changing back to my old shoe; the Brooks BEAST. I had all types of injuries when I migrated away from the BEAST several years ago and now I've been wearing it for a year I've been pretty well protected from injury. I've used the BarryP plan before to get going after a long layoff back from surgery and it worked! Currently trying the DEVPAUL plan where I'm trying to run every day. The everyday running seems to keep things fluid whereas rest days in between runs just seems to make things hurt worse;)

I am 52. Started running again at 46 in context or returning to triathlon. Had a few running blocks of 2 months or so where I got my 10 K time to 46 minutes. For reference at age 17 I ran 10K in 36 min 5k once in 16:10 half marathon in 1:20. But then I was 155 lbs. Now I am 175 at 6'1" I now cannot do more than 20 miles a week. In the first 4 years of my return I think I tore calf muscles 5-6 times necessitating 2-3 months to recover starting from walking. Also peroneal tendon issues in foot is a recurrent theme.

I think my biggest problem is the extra weight. I think if I was 165 lbs I could do 44 minutes maybe 43. I think I can go down 10 lbs max after that swimming which I like probably won't be very good.

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They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

43 is nothing like old.. I had another 7 years of setting tri PRs after that, though not in running it is true.

58 now, 6'2", 160-165 when running PRs, 175 now. I added a small comfortable puppy of fat around the middle in early 50s as a side effect of some medications, it followed me home and never left..



so it goes..
2010 age 50 was the last time I went under 20min for 5k. Currently 25min and increasing fast..
no speed, no endurance. I'd like to try an increased frequency of running for a couple of months, but have a wide selection of recurring injuries that keep me from executing the plan..

Joe Friel investigated all this in some detail, I recommend his 'Fast after Fifty' book.
Basically, need some high intensity every week, everything else done easy.
He didn't notice getting old until his late 60s..
https://www.joefrielsblog.com/...-my-performance.html
but that is biking which is easier than running. Ha.

Hi Barry: For what it's worth, here's my experience (over the past 35 years): In my 20s and 30s, I ran 5-6 times a week. One of those days would be a speed session (track or fartlek), one of those days would be a "hill-type" run, and one day would be "longish". Most of my triathlon races were Olympic distance or sprints.
In my 40s to mid-50s, I ran 4-5 times a week, with one day being "hill-type" and one day being "longish". I pretty much dropped the weekly speed session, but I would try to find a couple of 5ks per month to help me push the pace. My long runs increased in distance, because I was doing Ironmans and 70.3s, in addition to the Olympic and Sprint distances, so I focussed more on endurance and less on pure speed.
In the last 5 years (I'm 60 now) I reduced my running to 3-5 days a week (depending on how I feel). I usually do at least one run per week with some "mini-bursts" of speed (versions of "Copenhagen" intervals, "miracle" intervals, and other very short hard speed spurts to keep at least some semblance of fast-twitch activation), unless I can find a 5k race to help me push the pace. All the rest of my runs are pretty easy.
So, in summary, my frequency has been reduced, my mileage has been reduced, and my speed work has been reduced. What has NOT been reduced is my running enjoyment. I almost always feel good when I go for a run! I hope you find the formula that works for you to rediscover the joy in your running.