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What would you conclude? - Swim Thread
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Hi all,

I have a workout that I do regulary and with my last analysis it struck me:
- on the 400 FS with pull buoy (directly after 400m warm up with 30 sec pause) I record a 1:40/100m SCM
- on the 400 FS with paddles (already 2k into the workout) I record a 1:50/100m SCM

Same PE for both sets.

I would think that for both sets, times should be closer together or the second set should be faster with the same effort (having paddles + the kick).

What would you conclude from that:
Am I missing endurance (the fact that 2k into the set my x/100 drops by 10%)?
Am I missing arm strength (same PE but slower with paddles)?
Is my positioning bad (the fact that I am faster with a pull buoy)?
Is my kick bad (the fact that I am slower with paddles + kick)?

Of course it could be a combination of all. My question is, what should be my next iteration to get closer to the solution and identify the weakness?

My progress: Managed to get my 70.3 OWS with wetsuit down from 34 to very low 30 within 2 years with a max of 2 workouts per week and an avg. of 6km/week. Yes, I could do more and to get it down to 27-28 I would need to do 3 or more WO/week but progress has been statisfying so far and I have a lot more need to work on my running.
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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Do you have a video of you swimming? Combination of poor body position, ineffective kick, and too big of paddles/slower turnover would be my guess and in that order of priority.
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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have you done the test the other way around?
ie 400m with paddles first.
that could help you to get more conclusins...

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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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I would conclude that u get pretty tired near the end of your workouts. You can’t really compare those swims. Could you do 4 x 100 pulling on 30 seconds rest and hold the 1:40? If I can’t hold my form when pulling then I break up the set with some rest.

Edit just do a set of 100s alternating with the pull body and the paddles and see how much a time difference there is.
Last edited by: Gonefishin5555: Oct 24, 18 14:04
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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Too many variables to draw a conclusion (fresh vs possibly fatigued, pull buoy vs no buoy, no paddles vs paddles.) Fortunately, it doesn't take rocket science to figure this out. Isolate the variables and test.

My suspicion is a body position issue that the the buoy is masking. Change up your workout to put the two 400's back to back, with sufficient rest in between to recover from the first one (2-3 minutes). Do the first as usual (buoy, no paddles), and the second as a straight swim. The latter should be faster. At worst, you should be no more than a second or two per hundred slower on the second 400. If it's 10 seconds/100, or some significant portion of that, you have your answer. If the latter is faster, or at least close, try it again the next workout, but use paddles and a pull buoy on the second 400. If that one's a lot slower than the first, you know you have paddles that are too big for your power, and it's slowing your stroke rate. If those are close (again, the 2nd should be a bit faster), try your usual two 400's back to back. If you can do the 2nd one at ~ the same time as the first, then you know it's a fatigue issue.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [pk] [ In reply to ]
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pk wrote:

have you done the test the other way around?
ie 400m with paddles first.
that could help you to get more conclusins...


nope! will try next time.
Last edited by: trisomemari: Oct 26, 18 10:24
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [TriFluid] [ In reply to ]
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https://vimeo.com/297356931
currently working on my left-hand entry.
feel free to comment on everything you notice!
Last edited by: trisomemari: Oct 26, 18 10:28
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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trisomemari wrote:
https://vimeo.com/297356931
currently working on my left-hand entry.
feel free to comment on everything you notice!

Your stroke looks quite good IMO; to answer your original Q, I'd say you are lacking in endurance, espec since you're only swimming 2X per week. Obv doing the two 400s back to back would be the way to conclusively answer the question. I'd say you have some talent for swimming to swim as well as you do with such limited training, and not being a lifetime swimmer. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
Your stroke looks quite good IMO; to answer your original Q, I'd say you are lacking in endurance, espec since you're only swimming 2X per week. Obv doing the two 400s back to back would be the way to conclusively answer the question. I'd say you have some talent for swimming to swim as well as you do with such limited training, and not being a lifetime swimmer. :)
Thanks for the feedback!
Been a rescue swimmer all my youth (1to2 times training per week) up until my late teens. Picked it up again 7 years later for health. In tris for 5 years now.
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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trisomemari wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

Your stroke looks quite good IMO; to answer your original Q, I'd say you are lacking in endurance, espec since you're only swimming 2X per week. Obv doing the two 400s back to back would be the way to conclusively answer the question. I'd say you have some talent for swimming to swim as well as you do with such limited training, and not being a lifetime swimmer. :)

Thanks for the feedback!
Been a rescue swimmer all my youth (1to2 times training per week) up until my late teens. Picked it up again 7 years later for health. In tris for 5 years now.

Ah, so you are a lifetime swimmer after all. Still, your stroke looks better to me than that of the majority of lifer swimmers. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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What paddles are you using? Having the correct size is important for stroke optimisation, too large can tire out your shoulder muscles pretty quickly and won't actually make you faster.
In terms of stroke advice, without a true side on/under water view a little hard to see what is happening on that front, but I think you would benefit from being a bit more aggressive with your hand entry on both sides, and aim deeper underwater (especially on the left).
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Post deleted by windschatten [ In reply to ]
Last edited by: windschatten: Oct 26, 18 23:16
Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [pbnz] [ In reply to ]
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Speedo Tech Paddles Size M

Size should be correct. I guess I‘m also lacking the arm strength necessary.
Didn’t do any strength training for arms but swim specific stuff like paddles and ankle band.
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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [windschatten] [ In reply to ]
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windschatten wrote:
You have a weird wiggle going on with your hand towards the end of your pull.

That together with the incorrect left hand entry could slow you down pulling...

Again, comparing oranges to apples with your testing protocol.
.


Totally agree regarding the protocol. The feedback on the pull is still very valuable.
Some underwater footage shot from the front:
https://vimeo.com/297450027


how can I get rid of the "wiggle"?
Also understood that I need to get more aggressive on the hand entry
But I guess that means my frequency will increase, am I right?






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Re: What would you conclude? - Swim Thread [trisomemari] [ In reply to ]
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“how can I get rid of the "wiggle"?
Also understood that I need to get more aggressive on the hand entry
But I guess that means my frequency will increase, am I right? “

Wiggle- is like you are catching water at front of stroke then letting it go mid pull, then grabbing it again at the end of pull. Could try a scull drill gradually sculling thru all angles, and get feel for having pressure on water in those various shapes. Start sculling extended up in a hand entry shape, then move deeper, then windshield wiper- lime breaststroke scull, then back, then back further to a hip scull . Few meters of each. Use buoy & snork. Do 25m scull drill / 25m pull for 200-300m.

Frequency/hand entry.
I’d argue it’s worth trying to attack that the other way around. Increase stroke rate purposefully first. Entry will become more aggressive without putting wasted energy into it. If you stop and think about hand entry, your stroke rate might further decrease and you’ll slow down.
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