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Penalty Questions
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Not wanting to muddy the water of another conversation I have two questions, both out of complete naivety.

Is there no check between the moto and the tent to confirm penalties between course and the tent? Do they not have radios? How long does it take to say.... rider xxx, yellow.... tent 2. At least then when the honest rider shows up to serve at least he can serve the 'allotted' penalty and not be told after the fact you didnt serve enough time. Yes... could still be a fuck up, but at least not a post facto DQ and the debate could continue around race time.... not simply being in the results.

Another, If an athlete is issued a penalty, stops and serves the time only to have after the ref claim it was another infraction after the fact (or the ref claim the rider left early) what is the issue with just adding the time on by the race organizer at the end? If the athlete acknowledged, stopped and served its not like they were trying to really pull one over on people (though I'm sure morally flexible individuals would try and take advantage). Certainly the athlete/ref could have a spirited debate over hey man, you showed me a yellow card, blue card, whatever but at least then its a debate over time, not getting kicked entirely. And.... if relating to the question one above they have radios (with recording) in theory they would have a real-time record of what occurred.

I say/ask both the questions above as someone who has never been issued a penalty, and simply does not know. If someone gets a penalty or a DQ then they should serve or accept it, all shittyness included. I would, and I would be absolutely gutted.

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Taylor Rogers

2024: IM Hamburg
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Re: Penalty Questions [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure how this works in Ironman, but I know that ITU uses a penalty ticket system for long course. They pull up beside the athlete, call the infraction, show the card, and then tell them to report to the next penalty box, they then document the infraction, the location, the time, the color of the card, and at least two ways to ID the athlete (Bib #, and then something like the bike brand, name off the kit, country code off the kit, helmet color, etc.). when the official reaches the next penalty tent, they drop off the tickets, which the officials there use to document that the penalty was served (it also serves as a log for the infractions should there be a protest, in this case it would confirm what the infraction was, so even if the official said they gave a blue card, and the athlete saw yellow, they could confirm, it was for blocking, which is a yellow card offense, which would mean the 2min penalty, not the 5min, so no DQ if the athlete only served the 2min). The tickets may or may not reach the penalty box before the athlete does, so it's still the athlete's responsibility to know the color of the card given, but if the ticket is there, it's a way to double check and confirm. For AG races, they typically won't radio in the penalties because there would be too much radio chatter blocking other essential radio calls... If the calls were radio'd in, while not recorded, for ITU events, there's one official who logs all of the radio calls made as a back up, so that typically could be used as evidence in a protest after the fact, I doubt that they have this role for Kona. Radios for LD Tri are challenging, because of range, it's hard to have everyone communicate reliably over that long of a distance (you can use intercity channel radios for a shorter event, but even for a two loop IM/LD tri event, you'll lose comms, even on an intercity channel, once you get too far from the hub), you tend to need to use a cellphone based system which is pretty sub-optimal for this purpose. The other option that could work would be to text in penalties, have the official log the infraction and text in bib #, infraction, and card color to the penalty tents that could then log it, it gets around the radio chatter and range issues... You also then have the text histories as a back-up audit trail.

That being said, there should be no ambiguity in the card. It's one color or another and usually they call out the athlete #, wait for your attention, and then show you the card and tell you the infraction (i.e. athlete 1234, blue card, for drafting, report to the next penalty tent). While I've never received a penalty in a race, the best approach is always to ask the official to repeat the call to confirm what your penalty is (I have had athletes do this when I've given out penalties as an official, which I've thought was smart). This gives a chance to ensure that everyone is on the same page.
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Re: Penalty Questions [xcrogers] [ In reply to ]
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In USA Triathlon sanctioned events, they utilize the "add the time at the end" penalty playbook.

WTC has specific exemptions to this rule for races taking place in the United States, which obviously includes Kona. They utilize the penalty tent and card system to determine penalties, which are served on the course. This is an attempt to ensure that the person who crosses the finish line first is, in fact, the winner of the event (particularly for the professional field). I suppose that, if they wanted to, they could utilize the penalty card system for professionals and the "add time on" system for age-groupers, but I think that winds up complicating calls made on the road.

The system is meant to work that you as an athlete are required to self-report to the next penalty station which card you were served and to then serve your variable time penalty. The time served is tracked by volunteers at the penalty tent with a stopwatch, who release you when it is your time to go.

Having worked a few events in remote places - you may have radios. They don't always work. And you're usually trying to keep channels clear for truly important communications (e.g., emergencies, supplies, etc.)

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