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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I didn’t say he pulled lange. I said the apparent weakest runner decided to pull an entire group that he may or may not have been able to beat 1 or 2 of them on the run. But by pulling the entire group he burned some top guys and himself up resulting in the entire group beating him.

If that’s good tactics, thanks for the lecture Monty.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Monty is spot on and I don't understand what's so difficult to get there. Yes, instead of "helping" the guys in his group (even though Gomez, for instance, at least in hindsight find it particularly helpful) he could have chosen to make an effort to sabotage their race (including his own).
At some point you suggested that he could have tried to gap the group (which clearly would have burned his leg a lot more); maybe that would have cost Lange (and some others in the group) a couple of minutes in their bike and/or run time, but it would have cost him time as well. The end result of those "games" might have been that people who were not in his group (Wild, Koutny, Philips, Cunnama, Reed) catch him on the bike or pass him on the run.
The bottom line is that 5 days after the race, you have come up with a variety of suggestions what Dreitz could have done differently, but not a single one is certain (or even likely) to have resulted in a better finish for Dreitz.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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So you asked a question what he could have done differently?

I showed you that he burned a ton of matches and that likely could have cost him 16s which is the difference from 12th and 13th. If you disagree FINE. But I reasoned the SLOWEST runner did the MAJORITY of the work. If you don't think that cost him time, great. I explained why/how it likely did.

You asked a question, I gave you a very logical answer. You just dont like the answer, but I answered you with specifics how he could have raced differently that would have gotten him a better position.

But as I said when you have different motives, you can burn matches for someone else, thus I dont think he was entirely racing for himself. If you think he was racing entirely for himself, great. But he missed 12th by 15s. Do I think he could have gotten 12th by riding easier on the bike, yes I do.

Thus the answer to your question. You just seemingly disagree. And that's fine, but if you think he wasnt affected by doing all that work, I would think you don't understand draft dynamics and the savings it does for people in the draft..aka science.

As I said I think he lost any ability to run well by doing the tactic he employed even if it meant he hurt some runners in the group as well. But i ANSWERED your question very logically. You dont as the slowest runner in a select group continue to do all the work and not pay for it. You make others do work unless you have other motives. If you disagree, by all means, GREAT. 'm giving you a very logical answer, you just dont like it because you think he did the correct tactic. I think differently. We good? Nothing else to discuss.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 19, 18 6:08
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Being Dreitz, what is more important :

a) finish 12 instead of 13th, and waiting behind Lange during the bike, kind of "pressure is on you mate, I'm just a rookie"

b) help his teammate be world champ and break Kona record (was clearly an objective) by pacing and 12m legal drafting

Uuuhhh.... hesitating.... maybe sponsor will prefer b), and I will less feel an asshole choosing b) ?
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So you think by cycling 2 minutes slower he might have run 2:30 minutes faster and hence have finished 12th? Maybe. Maybe not. But which athlete gets their pacing perfectly right? At their Kona debut? There's probably not a single athlete (maybe with the exception of Lange) which in hindsight couldn't have been 30 seconds faster. And if you don't get your pacing 100% right, you might call that a tactical mistake, not sacrificing your race.
On the other hand you could argue that the couple of times he didn't push hard in the hope somebody else in the group would take the lead cost him those 30 seconds, and hence 12th place...
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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So him being the WEAKEST runner in the group, SLOWING DOWN to let MORE RUNNERS who are STRONGER than him CATCH UP so that they then can LEAVE HIM IN THE DUST on the run course sounds logical to you? Well fine then...
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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I'm not quantifing X:Y savings, I've simply said he as the weakest runner in that group wasn't able to pull away from the group. At that point, you may want to think about saving your own legs to have a run. I think he destroyed some of the legs- look at Currie and Gomez getting dropped the last 10 miles of the bike and Gomez's run def looked overbiked. I just think he was also a casuality.

So I'm not saying he saves 2 mins on the bike he gets 2 mins back on the run. I'm suggesting that he could have shared some workload. He was closer to 11th than 14th, 15th was closer to him than he was to 11th. That's the specifics of his spots. If you think he rode the best race for himself, great.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 19, 18 6:29
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [malte] [ In reply to ]
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Which is faster sharing the work or putting one on the front the entire time? If you think only him pulling was going to get that bike split then you say him. If you think No one was going to work cool. I think out of what the 8-10 in the group some would have.

Top 3 at the front shared the workload a bunch in that ride Saturday’ until amberger fell off and then starky kinda felt blah.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
I'm suggesting that he could have shared some workload.

Well, he said he couldn't - he tried, but there were no takers. But glad you think that you know better than Dreitz.

And yes, he could have tried harder, including going to the left of the road and stop pedalling (i.e. a rule violation called blocking), as was suggested in another thread, and other nonsense.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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I'm totally with you B! As others have suggested, "he wasn't going to beat Lange, so what did he have to gain?". Seems to me this plays more to your idea that at least he gets a "perk" of sorts from sponsors, tons of media attention (no such thing as bad pub), and world best by a teammate. Seems to me he won.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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And if you read that thread I said it was going to be a blocking foul to the gent that said move left. But if you want off the front you can get off the front, hr wasn’t locked into 1st, how? Because if you slow down you then put 2nd forced to pass cus they are now in your draft zone.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, and then he finds himself at the end of a group that doesn't move and then what? Wait till the 30 guys that were behind his group are catching up? Or until Daniela Ryf passes the group? Amazing strategy!
I'm done with this fruitless discussion.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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Fruitless discussion? Help me answer 1 question? Who was the one asked for other tactics?

I answered your question, and to disprove my theory your answer is that they will ride so slow that Ryf is going to catch them? yeah that's what would have happened. 30 guys were not going to catch that group. They were not going to ride 1 mph slower all of a sudden. If you think he was locked into 1st, cool. If you think only he at the front was keeping 30 others away, even cooler.

If you can't handle having an discussion on tactics, dont ask the questions.


ETA: Look at the splits. "my" strategy has him at best 11th or likely 12th best, at worst 15th. His strategy had him at 13th. There is likely no way he was finishing any worse than 15th no matter what strategy he employed, the stats dictate that. So we are talking 1-2 spots, but I also think we are talking more in line that- my strategy included racing completely for himself, as I *think* Saturday he rode far more for others which included a champange dinner with the champ. Perks of working for the race winner.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Oct 19, 18 8:06
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Caution, #racereferee

Domestique or not a domestique... that's not a question for me.

What I did see on the final 200m was littering as Lange threw his towel and sponges off.
A DSQ would have required some balls and not what the company would have wanted.
A stop-and-go would have been a minimum.

#betherecordbreaker , yup. Just bend some rules along the way.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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For those who think or argue that Dreitz sacrificed his race or his marathon in Kona, look at the results of yesterday's IM Arizona: Dreitz had the slowest marathon of the top 12 finishers. Although I'm sure he could and will do better than he did yesterday, the simple truth is that running is not his strength. In Kona he had a very solid marathon (relative to his running potential) and people who claim otherwise just don't know anything about that guy.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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You could also use this as a argument that he did in fact ride less hard in Kona than he would normally do (in order to not drop his teammate) and therefore had a better marathon there.

if you can read this
YOU'RE DRAFTING!
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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The podium at IMAZ was 41, 40, 38...

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [heartpatient] [ In reply to ]
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Something I want to know with the new qualification structure.....where's a guy like Dreitz going to qualify for Kona at? Now it seems win and your in + added roll down spots, but a guy with this bad of a "run" will be interesting to see his race schedule.

ETA: I'm also not going to look specifically as splits from a race where outside of 3rd you were "wasting" your time finishing. You got nothing, so do I think guys "mailed" it in at some point, I do.

We just disagree on the tactics that were played out in Kona. Again I'm not saying what he did was wrong, I think it was easy to see that he was "working" for someone else. I'll let the commentary of the tri + pro community understand/assess that and stand on it's own.

Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Nov 19, 18 8:11
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Post deleted by hairypiernas [ In reply to ]
Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [hairypiernas] [ In reply to ]
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If one guy is yelling at another guy, and that other guy is responding with changes in pace, does the language being spoken really matter? And I doubt at those distances/speeds that Currie would be able to understand the exact words even if they were being spoken in English.

And to say Currie was just as wrong, I'm going to have to disagree with you on that.
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Re: Has the game changed? Team Tactics [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
Something I want to know with the new qualification structure.....where's a guy like Dreitz going to qualify for Kona at? Now it seems win and your in + added roll down spots, but a guy with this bad of a "run" will be interesting to see his race schedule.

ETA: I'm also not going to look specifically as splits from a race where outside of 3rd you were "wasting" your time finishing. You got nothing, so do I think guys "mailed" it in at some point, I do.

We just disagree on the tactics that were played out in Kona. Again I'm not saying what he did was wrong, I think it was easy to see that he was "working" for someone else. I'll let the commentary of the tri + pro community understand/assess that and stand on it's own.


Starky talked about this on the Brick Session. That we'll start seeing the true delineation between Pros who are racing for money and those who are racing to get to Kona. Where the appearance fee from Sponsors and bonuses for getting on the podium and then you'll have folks pull out when they're having a bad day and saving it for a race a month later.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
Last edited by: TheStroBro: Nov 19, 18 8:39
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