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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [Tubs] [ In reply to ]
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Tubs wrote:
Lange is probably the best runner Kona has ever seen. There was a lot of talk about Sanders, Gomez, how Frodo would have been the one to beat etc, and to me it seemed like very little focus on Lange. He was beaten many times in 2018, but no one can beat him in kona. He has the formula for the race and his preparation dialled in. Admittedly the last 2 years seemed to be favourable conditions for runners in Kona, but if someone wants to beat him next year, I think they need to have a plan. Lange seems like a smart racer. Some of the other pro's don't like the way he races but, like many great athletes, he does what he needs to do to win. I don't like Macca but you can't deny that his 2010 victory over Crowie was very clever. Hoping for a windy day for the uber bikers is fine, but hope rarely wins titles.

So what do the other Pro's do?

Crosswinds.
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [ericMPro] [ In reply to ]
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+1

PL said in post race interviews he 'worked very hard' (or something to that effect) to stay on the wheel of Dreitz. Expose PL on the bike like Macca et al did to CA in 2010. Guys like TO or Jan could have ridden with the breakaway on Saturday - needed to be in the move though.

ericMPro wrote:
Tubs wrote:
Lange is probably the best runner Kona has ever seen. There was a lot of talk about Sanders, Gomez, how Frodo would have been the one to beat etc, and to me it seemed like very little focus on Lange. He was beaten many times in 2018, but no one can beat him in kona. He has the formula for the race and his preparation dialled in. Admittedly the last 2 years seemed to be favourable conditions for runners in Kona, but if someone wants to beat him next year, I think they need to have a plan. Lange seems like a smart racer. Some of the other pro's don't like the way he races but, like many great athletes, he does what he needs to do to win. I don't like Macca but you can't deny that his 2010 victory over Crowie was very clever. Hoping for a windy day for the uber bikers is fine, but hope rarely wins titles.

So what do the other Pro's do?


there was a tactical moment in yesterday's race where Patrick was beatable. There were 4 up the going up the road and PL had yet to bridge on Dreitz's wheel to the chase pack. At that moment, I was rooting for TO to go with those 4 and take a chance, sort of like Amberger did. He didn't, and he stayed with the chase pack.

It probably wouldn't have worked out but somebody is going to have to take a chance. If TO goes up maybe another goes with him and the gap goes up even more. Hard to say. But to me, that was the moment that decided the race.

Coaching - Future Endurance
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
Lange won't three-peat. First-year-married guys rarely win.

Shit! Somebody shou‘ve told Lionel. That‘s why his performance was all over the place.

@OP Please rename thread: „How does the field try to beat Lionel in 2019“ because another Lionel thread is what ST needs right now.
Last edited by: trisomemari: Oct 15, 18 4:02
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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Why don't they like it? I would assume he is playing to his strengths.....swim well, don't over extend on the bike...out run your contenders....

"see the world as it is not as you want it to be"
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [Tubs] [ In reply to ]
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Tubs wrote:
Lange is probably the best runner Kona has ever seen. There was a lot of talk about Sanders, Gomez, how Frodo would have been the one to beat etc, and to me it seemed like very little focus on Lange. He was beaten many times in 2018, but no one can beat him in kona. He has the formula for the race and his preparation dialled in. Admittedly the last 2 years seemed to be favourable conditions for runners in Kona, but if someone wants to beat him next year, I think they need to have a plan. Lange seems like a smart racer. Some of the other pro's don't like the way he races but, like many great athletes, he does what he needs to do to win. I don't like Macca but you can't deny that his 2010 victory over Crowie was very clever. Hoping for a windy day for the uber bikers is fine, but hope rarely wins titles.

So what do the other Pro's do?


If Sanders/Kienle/Wurf any other good bikers get ahead of Lange/Gomez and then have a team mate in the group with Lange and Gomez and ride at the head of that group and slowly bring the pace down so Lange and/or Gomez have to take over and ride with their head in the wind, or at a slower pace. And other athletes riding with Lange should realize that they have no chance at winning as long as they don't force him to do work at the front of that group.
Last edited by: TriStart: Oct 15, 18 5:20
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [Tubs] [ In reply to ]
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Newbie here. Can someone explain why strategies like grouping up and riding in chase packs can affect performance in any way (aside from the swim)? Is this a way of saying drafting is actually happening despite it not being allowed, or is it more of a way of playing mental games to mess with someone's head? How can you "pull" someone along if they're not drafting?

For example, what difference does it make if the front bike group pushed the pace more and separated more from Lange? If Lange just does his own race shouldn't his time be about the same at the end regardless? In other words, why does anything anyone else in the field does affect Lange's performance as long as he still rides at the power/HR/pace he knows he can maintain?
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [TheStroBro] [ In reply to ]
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The time doesnt matter since conditions varies a lot. Good race for him, podium and top 5 is great for T-O
Gomez has a bigger chance for the win. Not saying he will but his potential is bigger
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [Nick2413] [ In reply to ]
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Nick2413 wrote:
Newbie here. Can someone explain why strategies like grouping up and riding in chase packs can affect performance in any way (aside from the swim)? Is this a way of saying drafting is actually happening despite it not being allowed, or is it more of a way of playing mental games to mess with someone's head? How can you "pull" someone along if they're not drafting?

For example, what difference does it make if the front bike group pushed the pace more and separated more from Lange? If Lange just does his own race shouldn't his time be about the same at the end regardless? In other words, why does anything anyone else in the field does affect Lange's performance as long as he still rides at the power/HR/pace he knows he can maintain?

On low wind days there is still a small but significant draft effect even if everyone is riding at legal distances. This effect can be much larger if the camera truck and other race vehicles do not stay out of the way. There can also be help from pacing off of other competitors, but this is more of a psychological effect.

These factors are very important to the pro race as they do not care so much about the time, they are there to beat the other pros. They all have a good idea of their own run pace as well of that of their top competitors, so a lot of the bike segment is all about arriving at T2 close enough to run down the leaders, or about getting enough gap to hold off the fastest runners.

Having somebody like Dreitz lead a second pack can be critical as it can reduce the time gap to the lead bike group, provide a draft, yet make sure that the second group is not at such a high pace that Lange's legs get trashed.
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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NAB777 wrote:
Tubs wrote:
Lange is probably the best runner Kona has ever seen. There was a lot of talk about Sanders, Gomez, how Frodo would have been the one to beat etc, and to me it seemed like very little focus on Lange. He was beaten many times in 2018, but no one can beat him in kona. He has the formula for the race and his preparation dialled in. Admittedly the last 2 years seemed to be favourable conditions for runners in Kona, but if someone wants to beat him next year, I think they need to have a plan. Lange seems like a smart racer. Some of the other pro's don't like the way he races but, like many great athletes, he does what he needs to do to win. I don't like Macca but you can't deny that his 2010 victory over Crowie was very clever. Hoping for a windy day for the uber bikers is fine, but hope rarely wins titles.

So what do the other Pro's do?


Crosswinds.

Sacrifice some chickens to the wind gods.
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [surrey85] [ In reply to ]
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surrey85 wrote:
Brilliant move by Frodo to put this whole "Domestique" thing out there. Nobody would have had any suspicion whatsoever or would be talking about domestiques now if it had not been for Frodos guest commentary. You gotta hand it to him for someone who was unable to participate at all he for sure did capitalize on his situation to the maximum extend.
Brilliant saltiness. But salt is brilliant by default, so it was out of his control.

eganski wrote:
Getting dropped out of a group that contained Lange, on the easiest and fastest bike day in history, does not bode well for his future chances. He's off the bike after 100k if it's windy.
Oxymoron much?
Also, check the available Strava files and tell us how they had both an easy AND fastest day out there.
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Re: How does the field try to beat Lange in 2019? [Tubs] [ In reply to ]
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The solution to a more fair race is very easy a 20m no drafting zone (rear of bike to front of the following bike) and consistent fair enforcement of the rules. If my wife would let me, Ironmanbfly me over and accommodate me, I would go be a marshall for free. I would go and crush dreams of cheaters no problem. I've got no problem calling a spade a spade. Towing team mates up to the front at a very questionable distance...no problem right...#bethedrafttaker...similar # to something I may have seen on Instagram.
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