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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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excuse myself for being the layman.....does that mean 'loading' over several days is not necessary? and one shot is sufficient?
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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Would be interesting to see how much is in the various beer powders out there
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [IamSpartacus] [ In reply to ]
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Correct.

To be specific: initial studies included a "loading phase" (typically 5 d, but sometimes longer), leading subsequent investigations to just follow along. There are also animal data demonstrating changes in protein expression as a result of dietary nitrate supplementation, which, given the turnover rate of most proteins, would generally take at least a few days to occur (or at least be maximized). Together, these publications established the idea that you need to ingest nitrate for multiple days prior to competition.

If you actually pay attention to the data, however, especially in humans, there is (as I indicated before) very little, if any, evidence that the physiological effects of nitrate supplementation reflect anything other than just an acute effect:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29547495

Sadly, this is often the case in science, i.e., ideas become firmly established in peoples' minds before they really should, and it is only upon further study/reflection that things get properly sorted out. Indeed, I recently had to educate a reviewer of one of our articles about this very fact (i.e., they had bought in to the notion that there was a difference between acute and chronic supplementation).

A couple of more dietary nitrate-related "facts" that aren't really as solid as reading even the primary literature would lead you to believe:

1) The effects that are seen are the result of changes in nitric oxide availability specifically in type II, or fast-twitch fibers.

This hypothesis is based on the fact that, at least in rodents, the nitric oxide system plays a much more important role in type II vs. type I fibers. Andy Jones has therefore done a couple of studies attempting to demonstrate that this is also true in humans (e.g., by comparing the benefits of nitrate ingestion in subjects pedaling very fast vs. very slowly). In humans, however, endogenous nitric oxide production/action is just as high in slow-twitch and fast-twitch fibers, such that you wouldn't necessarily expect a fiber type-specific effect. Furthermore, when we analyzed data from subjects who functionally differed widely in muscle contractile properties, we did not see any correlation between an individual's apparent fiber type and the extent to which they benefited from nitrate supplementation:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29368802

2) Highly-trained subjects do not benefit from dietary nitrate supplementation.

It is true that highly-trained endurance athletes seem to benefit less, if at all, from nitrate supplementation, at least when it comes to the effects on endurance exercise. This could be due to frequent activation of the endogenous nitric oxide synthase system, leading to accumulation of nitrite and nitrate (NO -> NO2- -> NO3-). However, it doesn't seem to be true with respect to the effects of nitrate supplmentation on muscle contractile properties:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26641379

I discuss these issues in greater detail in this recent review:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30001275
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 11, 18 5:59
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [RBR] [ In reply to ]
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Beer, or beet?

(I think it would be funny to create a parody YouTube video of the Kavanaugh's recent hearing, substituting "beets" for every time he said "beer".)
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Lol
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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so throw out beet elite, or up the dose?

Take two shots of Beet It and go from crappy 3k'er to less crappy 3k'er?

* mix beet supplement with baking soda or no benefit to do both?

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Last edited by: Morelock: Oct 11, 18 6:41
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
so throw out beet elite, or up the dose?

Take two shots of Beet It and go from crappy 3k'er to less crappy 3k'er?

* mix beet supplement with baking soda or no benefit to do both?

Same questions...Based on the chart I'm trying to figure out what the best solution is. I'm leaning towards just doubling up on the Beet It shots.
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you, Prof Coogan!
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Beet Elite is an interesting case, as it (and the companies similar - identical? - product Super beets, of Dana Loesch fame) is the only supplement we tested that contains more than a tiny amount of nitrite

The good news is that that means a more rapid onset of action, as shown in a recent study from Jones' lab.

The bad news is that the effects also dissipate more rapidly, as shown in the same study.

I will leave it to astute readers to figure out what the IU tech transfer office is working on. ;)
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 11, 18 18:14
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [ffmedic84] [ In reply to ]
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Two shots of Beet It is certainly the safe bet (and is what has been used in most scientific studies, especially once they started selling a nitrate-free version for use as a placebo).
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Two shots of Beet It is certainly the safe bet (and is what has been used in most scientific studies, especially once they started selling a nitrate-free version for use as a placebo).
wait, they actually sold a placebo? i dont understand. fascinating stuff here, so at any rate, thanks for the study.

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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Twilkas] [ In reply to ]
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Present tense.

Beet It now sells a nitrate-free placebo to researchers such as myself, making it possible to do studies of nitrate per se, with BRJ just as the vehicle.*

Before it became available about 10 y ago, investigators were forced to use other juices (e.g., black currant juice) as the comparator. Unfortunately, this leaves unanswered the question of what substance or substances in BRJ is responsible for any effect that are observed.

*There are actually several studies suggestive of some interaction between nitrate and other compounds in BRJ, but they aren't very definitive.
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Andrew Coggan wrote:
Two.

Studies that have used only one have had rather mixed results; three doesn't seem to be any better than two (on average).

Funny that beetelite states right on the box: "Do not exceed more than one serving (10g) in 24 hours."
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Might be a bit of a tangent, but is there a type of variety that is better than the other?

I generally grow a Detroit dark red variety as it seems the most common seed at the store, but there are others ruby queen, chiogga, golden varieties, etc
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [jstonebarger] [ In reply to ]
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Possibly concerned about people ingesting too much nitrite.
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [AndysStrongAle] [ In reply to ]
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This study from Austria:

Wruss, J., Waldenburger, G., Huemer, S., Uygun, P., Lanzerstorfer, P., Müller, U., Höglinger, O., Weghuber, J. (2015). Composition characteristics of commercial beetroot products and beetroot juice prepared from seven beetroot varieties grown in Upper Austria. J Food Comp Anal 42: 46-55.

grew the following varieties of beets all on the same 12 m^2 plot of land, then harvested them and analyzed their composition:

Agyptische, Plattrunde, Bolivar, Forono, Mona Lisa, Moronia, Redval and Robuschka. Nitrate contents in ug/mL were (in order) 1637 +/- 565, 914 +/- 422, 1730 +/- 526, 4626 +/- 658, 1358 +/- 742, 2963 +/- 279, and 564 +/- 129.

Unfortunately, I have no clue as to how these varieties might align with names that you might find in other countries.

ETA: Looking on Burpee Seeds just now, I see that they alone sell 16 different varieties...it is therefore perhaps unsurprising that beet juice from various sources varies markedly in nitrate content.
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Oct 12, 18 13:08
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [DBF] [ In reply to ]
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DBF wrote:
Thanks Andrew. I was actually the person who mentioned the Lakewood juice. I drink 8oz 2x a day the 2 days before and 8oz morning of. Gun to my head, I think it works.

JH

Looks like Lakewood do a concentrate now. Says that ~370ml bottle make ~1.4litres so just ordered to try that out: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B075V37LF5/

If 1.4l of reconstituted beet juice has the same amount of nitrates as their normal beet juice (~18mmol / 500ml), you could get the same dosage as a "beet it sport pro-elite" (~6mmol / 70ml) in ~35ml of concentrate (36% of 125ml normal juice)

Cost wise beet it costs $73.60 CAD delivered for 15shots of 70ml (1.05l).

Lakewood beet concentrate, 2 bottles cost $36.40 CAD delivered for 21shots of 35ml (740ml).

So lots cheaper, and I won't feel bad experimenting with dosages and timings as much.

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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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So if one went with low doses of grandpas sublingual nitroglycerine (GTN) instead of beet juice would that result in similiar positive effects? I mean that option is probably a lot cheaper, hassle free and the active ingredient level is actually known and constant.
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Re: What's in *your* beet juice? [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
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Dr Coogan,

I like the taste of Lakewood Organic Beet juice and figure the carbs cals and carbs can't hurt race morning. I see that it tests very high in nitrate concentration, but is that just one serving size, like 8oz?? Is that all that is needed?
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