Interestingly, I actually first considered the set of 303s + set of 808s route. I know some female pros ride a 303/808 combo at Kona, and given my timidness handling the bike in higher winds in aerobars, I figured maybe the 303/808 would be the better combo. I also figured the 303s would make a nice all-around wheelset for a road bike (of which I have too many).

But prevailing opinion is that you should go as deep as you can with front wheel, as that makes the biggest difference. Also, what I've noticed on my road bike is while there was one a time I felt quite skittish riding my Bora 50s, after plenty of time riding them in all sorts of crazy weather it's very rare that I don't feel comfortable on them (high wind + narrow shoulder with lots of cars or long, technical, gusty descents maybe the only exceptions.). So my theory was go with the 808, train on it a lot and eventually I'll get used to it and dropping down to the 404 would feel very "safe". I think training on the 404s and racing on the 808s when winds are light would work too.

But if I'm missing something, in the 404 vs 303 decision, I'm all ears.

Here's what I'll say: the 303 is really underrated as a wheel. Take a look at the image below that shows Flo's data for their 45, 60, and 90mm deep wheels. I'm struggling to find a similar chart of the 303, 404, and 808 all in one chart at the moment but, rest assured, the relative differences are similar. Keep the following in mind:
-50 grams of drag = 5 watts = 0.5 seconds per km (aero rule of thumb)
-The below is for wheel only testing. Generally, when you add a bike and rider to the whole system the deltas decrease slightly.
-Substitute 303 for the Flo 45, 404 for the Flo 60, and 808 for the Flo 90.

So at 7.5 degrees of yaw (which is where you start to see any meaningful differences) the 303 gives up 1 watt to the 404. At 10 degrees this stretches to a little over 2 watts. At 15 degrees you're looking at 5 watts.

"5 whole watts!!!" I hear you say. "That's 20 seconds in a 40k tt!" But hang on, stay with me. That 5 watts will diminish somewhat when you put the wheels on a bike with a rider (both in the tunnel and, as far as I can tell, in the real world). Also, the odds of you seeing 15 degrees of yaw throughout the entire duration of your ride is slim. It can happen on an out and back TT in farm country with a good crosswind but it's definitely not an everyday thing. So when you look at the average yaw you'll typically see and then put the wheel onto a bike with a rider you're probably looking at 1-2 watts between a 404 and a 303.

With that said, I've ridden both wheels in all sorts of conditions. I've been pushed around on a 404. Never "scary" but I've been pushed around. I've never been pushed around on a 303. Ever. It's just such a composed wheel. It's also the strongest/most durable wheel Zipp makes. Pros having been riding 303s on Roubaix for years. It's tough.

I've said my piece. The 303 is underrated. If I were you and already had a set of 808s coming and was contemplating a "second wheelset" I'd get a set of 303s in a heartbeat.

Well yeh science and stuff

But the looks man! It’s all about the looks!

Thanks GreenPlease. That’s a very interesting dataset and way of looking at it.

Now... my completely crazy first though is maybe this makes a case for the 303 front after all.

— 404s as training wheels. Give enough wind feedback to keep building solid handling skills, riding them on some of the crazy 20-30 mph days here in SF.
— 808s and a 303 front setup as race-only wheels, tubeless with Corsa Speed.

But that’s probably crazy....

I think the intelligent thing to do is ride around on the 404s a while and see if I really am likely to ever encounter conditions where it would be faster (due to higher confidence) running a shallower front.

The craziest part of that proposal is the Corsa Speed tire. The roads where I ride are very nice... very clean of debris in general... and I flatted twice in just a few miles. It's a fragile tire.

You’re killing this man, listen to these guys. A set of 303s are great on a road bike. Buy a disc, you’ll find the bike handles better with a disc and 404/808 front. Unless you’re riding a crit style circuit race there is no need for a 303 race set. The key to good bike handling is don’t white knuckle the bars when aero, stay relaxed and roll with what the bike does. When you get a side gust, relax, hold your position on the bike and you’ll find you will have a slight sway off your line, then you’ll roll right back in it.

Agreed

Don’t waste thoughts or time on 303’s

This is exactly what I ended up doing. I wasn't necessarily dissimilar for your in having a lot of wheels. In my entire career, I mostly raced on Zipp 808s except for a few select races with a Zipp 404 (which I trained on too) but since the advent of the HED JET+ Black 6/Disc and I am usually running those. You definitely don't need all those wheels, unless you are going to really dedicate a set to just training and maybe the occasional gail force wind day as a backup. Ever since HED got so aggressive in pricing I have stayed away from suggesting Zipp. It just doesn't make a ton of sense as the 6 is such a versatile wheel.

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This.

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29 years and counting

Any sense for if/when Zipp will release a new NSW version of their CC disc -- with Congnition hub and the wider rim/brake-track?

Is there a tubeless tire you've had good luck with that you'd suggest? Either a training tire (just to try tubeless out) or a racing tire? I have yet to read about one that doesn't have mixed reviews.

No idea on an NSW disc. I've borderline harassed a Zipp and a SRAM rep that I'm friendly with and, to be honest, the sense I get from both is that it could be a while.

With regards to tubeless, I've experimented pretty extensively over the last 18 months. The only reliable combination I've had has been with my Mavic Road UST rims and their Hutchinson tires. Honestly, it seems like a bulletproof combo. The tires are pretty grippy, no flats, no problems with them seating or sealing. In terms of rolling resistance BRR pegs them at about the same level as a GP4000SII with a butyl tube so... not a race tire IMO but also not a complete dog.

If someone asked me for a rim brake training wheel/tire combo I'd tell them in a heart beat to get a set of Mavic Ksyrium Elite USTs and run them with the Mavic 28mm UST tire.

For your Zipps, Zipp has their own tubeless tire that's made by Hutchinson who also makes Mavic's tires. I think that's probably your best bet Dan aka Slowman seems to think well of that rim/tire combo.

For race day my tire combo of choice at the moment is the Continental Attack for a front tire and a GP TT for a rear with latex tubes. Hutchinson makes a "Tubeless Ready" tire that is basically the Mavic tire but without the butyl layer. It's probably race worthy in terms of rolling resistance but I need to get another pair to see if the sidewall bubble I experienced was a fluke.

So no comments on the x5x series? Why not an 858 which should perform like a 404 in the wind?

The trade off is that with the x5x is that you lose the possibility of running tubeless tires which the OP expressed interest in.

wintershade wrote:

Is there a tubeless tire you've had good luck with that you'd suggest? Either a training tire (just to try tubeless out) or a racing tire? I have yet to read about one that doesn't have mixed reviews.

I'm running these on my road bike and like them... they rate well, zero issues so far.

https://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com/road-bike-reviews/schwalbe-pro-one-tubeless-2016

I've been running 808 nsw front and rear on my p5 since I got it last year. I've got just over 5000 miles on the bike. Yes, I ride it a lot, and have ridden it in some super windy conditions (20-30mph). The wheels have felt fine each and every time, a couple of pucker up moments here and there, but nothing that couldnt be dealt with. I won a set of 404 firecrests last year for referring friends to Levi's gran fondo, and have used those on my road bike, never felt the need to put them on the TT.

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This x10,000

An 808/disc will cover you for 98.8xxxx% of all races you do around the world and be faster than a 404/808 or 808/808.

If you want a 404 front get one, IMO though it's money down the drain. I mean I've got women who weigh <117 I coach that will call you a pus*y for showing up with a 404 on the front.


I don't know who advised you but you should fire their dumb asses

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My bike actually came with a 454/858 F/R set. Aside from the lack of tubeless compatability which I was curious to try, I disliked their handling and sold them on this forum (for enough to buy a pair of 808s and 404 front). I found the 454 front behaved very oddly in the wind in a way that's hard to describe, though I think this reviewer does it well: https://intheknowcycling.com/...nsw_wheelset_review/

"Riding the Zipp 454 NSW in 15-20mph steady crosswinds, the wheel came back into line on its own. Then it went out the other way. Then came back. Then went out. Then came back. Until the wind eased or I rode into a sheltered area.

To complicate matters, when the wind blew the wheel out, I initially tried to bring it back in, same as I would any wheelset. That was a natural reaction. That was also exactly the wrong reaction for this wheelset, as I was adding to the correcting the wheel was doing itself, only making things worse. So I backed off and let the 454 do its thing.

It felt like a speed wobble. A controlled, intentional, small speed wobble mind you but a wobble nonetheless. I could see where a more disciplined rider or racer could get used to riding the 454 NSW if he/she frequently rode in windy conditions. I couldn’t. I’m not comfortable riding wobbling wheels, intentional or not.

I preferred the manual steer of the 404 NSW in the crosswinds to the self-correcting 454 NSW."

Having since taken the 404s and 808s on a test ride, I feel more comfortable riding the 808 front than the 454 front, by a considerable margin. The wider rim profile of the x0x NSW series also seems to handle/grip better (and a 25mm tire sits more flush) than the x5x NWS for the few brief test rides I did on the x5x's.

Thanks very much for this advice. I've ordered a set of the Zipp tubeless tires which I'm going to test on the 404 training wheels. I will report back how this goes.

For the 808 race set, I'm going to run Attack/Force for now with the occasional training ride on GP 4S, until I'm comfortable if/when I switch to racing on tubeless.