Get with The Program...

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#swimmingmatters
Laugh hard. Run fast. Be kind.
The Doctor (#12)

For the athletes that I've coached to BQ (mostly triathletes), I was successful in doing over speed work for long "race pace" runs. Meaning if athlete had to run 7:05 mile for 26 miles, I would break it down to getting them do do 9-10 mins x 10 etc at 6:42 mile pace. I've always thought if your only running at race pace, that is too close of a fine line for something going bad on race day that you can't "pick it up" with any speed in your legs. But if your able to run 18 miles at 18-22s faster than race pace (that's 6-7 mins faster than race pace), then race day run of needing "only " 7:05 feels much easier. I would rotate the long runs as- long run faster than race pace effforts and then next week, long runs easy runs much slower than race pace (but running to a time).

My sample size is small for that style, but I'm a big fan of "easy is easy and hard is hard". And majority of it was all being done with cross training as recovery methods (never really did the hard bike days on hard run days though).

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I'm a low mileage runner myself, big weeks were 40-45 miles.

Marathon pace in training is hard, I hated long tempo runs at marathon pace. I can't imagine doing the majority of my training at marathon pace. M pace + 1 minute is about right for runners aiming for around the 3 hours mark IMHO

I was successful in doing over speed work for long "race pace" runs. Meaning if athlete had to run 7:05 mile for 26 miles, I would break it down to getting them do do 9-10 mins x 10 etc at 6:42 mile pace.//

Ya, maybe I was not clear when I said each run should average race pace. But of course I don't mean go out the door at pace, maybe 30 seconds slower per mile, and then build until you are 30 seconds under towards the end, so the "average" pace is race pace, but the run itself goes from slower to faster. And of course if you want to fartlek in there, that is good too for change of speed, and of course hills for strength and over speed coming down...

People are actually thinking they can answer based on this info??

what do you mean 4% tomorrow?

'3:25 right now, 1:35 for half' - this is your current shape but have you run faster in the past?

'Current weekly mileage is around 25 miles' - how long have you been doing this? for all we know you could have been running 100 mile weeks all summer.

I would recommend buying/loaning from the library Jack Daniels running formula finding a plan that fits your situation and sticking to it.

To me the worst metric trainingpeaks puts in their training log is "average pace". That's the first thing I think athletes look at far too often..."did i average what I'm suppose to". And that likely defeats half the goals of most speed workouts.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

I only use it in the context that if you are going to do a very low mileage marathon program, that average pace needs to be much faster than the 80+ mph week folks. If you want a 3;05 and your average pace is 8 minutes on 40mph, you probably not going to make it, so a general benchmark..

This guy already has indicated he doesn't have the mental strength to commit by admitting he signed up for an extreme downhill race. More assistance than any drug out there can give you... Why is everyone here helping him cheat?

I actually didn't even read his OP response, I've only read the replies....i love reading how monty trains and/or trained in past. So I was more having general training conversation with him versus actually helping the OP. I was more intrigued by the methods and discussion to get 20 min improvement than the OP.

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Hi Monty,
And here's me thinking I was the only one. I've tried the high mileage(40+mpw) easy pace method and it never worked for me. TBH it's just as well, as I don't really have the time to run that much. I've always done much better on short mileage and faster pace, so I'm glad I'm not the only one. Could you elaborate on what your IM run training looked like, or others that you saw have succession low run miles? I run 20-25mpw so I'd be keen to hear what you would recommend doing with those miles in preparing for an IM.

Thanks,

Tubs

How often are you running with 20-25 miles.....eta I see it's for IM marathon training. Or just your current fitness, because I would consider 40 miles "low" and 20-25 super low mileage, almost wondering what is the restriction that is keeping it that low of volume.

That volume would mean what 1 long run and 2 shorter runs and that's about it?

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Brooks Doughtie, M.S.
Exercise Physiology
-USAT Level II

Usual week is:
1 x 9/10 mile long run @ 9:00 pace. ( my IM pace)
1 x 5/6 mile run with 8x800m@ 3:20-3:40 per 800m.
1 x 5/6 mile with 2x2mile @ 7:45/mile.
My 10k pace is about 7-7:15/mile

That’s all I have time for when training all 3 sports. In the winter I drop the cycling way down and can get another 2 runs in of 45min or so.

what do you mean 4% tomorrow?
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I'm pretty sure he means he dropped a bunch of cash on a new pair of Nikes

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Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

I ran my first marathon in 3:23 on 4 months of training in May 2017 then got hurt immediately afterwards and took most of the following 10 months off. Started training again 6 months ago for the TC marathon (this weekend!) and think I'm looking at a best case scenario of 3:10, but maybe more realistically 3:15. I'd say that if you're at a 3:25 right now you could get pretty close to 3:05 in another 6 months with no interruptions.

I've used the Hal Higdon plans both times but will probably look for a new training plan next time around as Hal's plan never has me running more than 10 miles at race pace (plus a "race" half marathon halfway through). It's fine knowing I can easily run 10 miles at 7:10 pace or 20 at 7:50 pace but I'd prefer some longer faster runs to give me some confidence for race day.

I want to report back.
Finished CIM 3:03 today well under my goal time. All I did was about 35mile per week but mostly hard fast miles. Mission accomplished.

Told you so, nice work..How did your splits go, negative, descending, or go out fast, die, and hold on!!

Negative split by 2min.
I went out with 3:10 pacer lost them. Find 3:05 at 20 mile pass them as well. Finished last 2 miles 6:40.
The condition was perfect.

Thats awesome, so sounds like you left no time on the table and ran a text book marathon pace. Just think what you could do on 40 miles per week now!!!