Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [dayvic] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 20:38

Post #101 of 121 (2314 views)

dayvic wrote:

Agree 100%, swimming is swimming, however I think there is one thing that seems to have been ignored in this whole thread which is the total lack of flexibility almost all adult onset swimmers have.

My observation looking at adult onset swimmers is most have awful balance/flexibility/core awareness. When I started doing shoulder/thoracic mobility testing a year ago I couldn't do a seated wall angel without my lumbar spine bowing out, and could barely get my elbows past my ears.. lets not even talk balancing in a tripod position. Working on this I think has made a huge difference to my balance/stroke in the pool as I don't snake on entry, have far better rotation etc..
I think that volume is important, but having done that route and making improvements, I now also think that mobility and body control is very very important if you wanna become a fast swimmer.

I really also think that shoulder flexibility is very much an underrated thing- know what you're doing and you can pick up some nice extra extention at the front of the stroke with pretty much no additional exertion on your part and without rolling so much you're scrambling to kick your way back into position.

I can pick out the childhood fish from the AOSes by whether or not they're showing the world their armpits on the recovery.

As for rep distance, I think my favorites are 100s because you can keep a nice slightly higher pace on them without thrashing yourself and 300s, which seems good and substantial and divide neatly into quarters in a short course pool so they can be done as a series fo 50 free-25 stroke to relieve boredom and just kind of balance things out.

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [zedzded] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 20:52

Post #102 of 121 (2305 views)

zedzded wrote:

fulla wrote:

zedzded wrote:

Too many "triathlon" swim coaches stick to a typical swim program, 50s, 100s, rarely anything more than 200. A swim set a sprinter would do, someone who races no more than 100m in a race, yet people who swim predominantly in wetsuits and swim 3.8km in the ocean are doing the same swim set...

Well, that's what Grant Hackett did mainly...50s, 100s and 200s. You can get really fit doing justs 50s, 100s and 200s in training.

Yeah for sure. More than one way to skin a cat. I guess I see a lot of MOP/BOP swimmers squad swimming do the stereotypical 10 x 100m main set or whatever, they swim 3 times a week, come race day they bimble round the course and come out the swim breathing out their arse, then struggle for the first portion of the bike. Even decent bikers struggle. Perhaps for the weaker swimmers, doing 50s and 100s isn't as beneficial as say a main set with 5 x 400. Obviously mix it up with some speed work. I reckon you get an average tri swimmer, get them doing a main set of 400s or 500s, they would really struggle. And if they struggle with that, they'll struggle come race day when they have to swim 3.8km.

I def agree. Beginner/BOP swimmers benefit a lot from longer (but not crazy long) TIMED sets.

The problem with BOP/beginners doing 100s is that they don't know how to pace them correctly, and in most cases, when the going gets hard, they start elongating the rest breaks AND slowing down the pace (even though they feel like they're working harder.)

When you have 20 x 100, that's like 40 opportunities to slack off - even if you hit the times on all 20, beginners may taken extra long breaks between them to rest up.

In a 5 x 300, you have less chances to cheat. This is also a big reason why flip turns are so beneficial for not-great swimmers - that 1sec/wall touch rest is adds up quick to 4sec/100!

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 20:59

Post #103 of 121 (2300 views)

lightheir wrote:

zedzded wrote:

fulla wrote:

zedzded wrote:

Too many "triathlon" swim coaches stick to a typical swim program, 50s, 100s, rarely anything more than 200. A swim set a sprinter would do, someone who races no more than 100m in a race, yet people who swim predominantly in wetsuits and swim 3.8km in the ocean are doing the same swim set...

Well, that's what Grant Hackett did mainly...50s, 100s and 200s. You can get really fit doing justs 50s, 100s and 200s in training.

Yeah for sure. More than one way to skin a cat. I guess I see a lot of MOP/BOP swimmers squad swimming do the stereotypical 10 x 100m main set or whatever, they swim 3 times a week, come race day they bimble round the course and come out the swim breathing out their arse, then struggle for the first portion of the bike. Even decent bikers struggle. Perhaps for the weaker swimmers, doing 50s and 100s isn't as beneficial as say a main set with 5 x 400. Obviously mix it up with some speed work. I reckon you get an average tri swimmer, get them doing a main set of 400s or 500s, they would really struggle. And if they struggle with that, they'll struggle come race day when they have to swim 3.8km.

I def agree. Beginner/BOP swimmers benefit a lot from longer (but not crazy long) TIMED sets.

The problem with BOP/beginners doing 100s is that they don't know how to pace them correctly, and in most cases, when the going gets hard, they start elongating the rest breaks AND slowing down the pace (even though they feel like they're working harder.)

When you have 20 x 100, that's like 40 opportunities to slack off - even if you hit the times on all 20, beginners may taken extra long breaks between them to rest up.

In a 5 x 300, you have less chances to cheat. This is also a big reason why flip turns are so beneficial for not-great swimmers - that 1sec/wall touch rest is adds up quick to 4sec/100!

Ya, there is an AOS guy who swims at my club and he often comments on how he doesn't rest at all when, in actuality, he often will rest not just 1 sec but 3 or 4 at end of a single 25 m length. Over 1600 m, which is as far as he ever swims, that really does add up. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [SH] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 21:13

Post #104 of 121 (2290 views)

SH wrote:

I think, for me, an optimal weekly swim program would look like:

3 days -- 45 minutes each -- warmup, 30x50@1:00, warmdown

Ex-college sprinter tip- drop these to :55 and you don’t have to count them. Third time you hit the 6 you are done. It also helps visually look like you are making progress rather than doing the same thing over and over.

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 21:51

Post #105 of 121 (2266 views)

Moonrocket wrote:

SH wrote:

I think, for me, an optimal weekly swim program would look like:

3 days -- 45 minutes each -- warmup, 30x50@1:00, warmdown

Ex-college sprinter tip- drop these to :55 and you don’t have to count them. Third time you hit the 6 you are done. It also helps visually look like you are making progress rather than doing the same thing over and over.

He's too modest to mention it but SH swam D1 himself and more recently set a Masters WR in 50-54 for the 100 IM (scm) in 1:00.XX. Further, when he was in the 45-49, he was touched out by Matt Biondi in the 100 scy IM at the USMS Short Course Nationals. Biondi went 54.9 vs SH went 55.0. So, he knows a thing or two about swimming. :)

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 22:17

Post #106 of 121 (2254 views)

ericmulk wrote:

Moonrocket wrote:

SH wrote:

I think, for me, an optimal weekly swim program would look like:

3 days -- 45 minutes each -- warmup, 30x50@1:00, warmdown

Ex-college sprinter tip- drop these to :55 and you don’t have to count them. Third time you hit the 6 you are done. It also helps visually look like you are making progress rather than doing the same thing over and over.

He's too modest to mention it but SH swam D1 himself and more recently set a Masters WR in 50-54 for the 100 IM (scm) in 1:00.XX. Further, when he was in the 45-49, he was touched out by Matt Biondi in the 100 scy IM at the USMS Short Course Nationals. Biondi went 54.9 vs SH went 55.0. So, he knows a thing or two about swimming. :)

Okay -I’ll remember not to try and be nice to the badasses :-)

But now I want to know how the heck he keeps track of 30 reps all leaving on the top? ADD female sprinter without impressive resume wants to know.

Last edited by: Moonrocket: Sep 11, 18 22:29

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Sep 11, 18 22:40

Post #107 of 121 (2238 views)

Moonrocket wrote:

ericmulk wrote:

Moonrocket wrote:

SH wrote:

I think, for me, an optimal weekly swim program would look like:
3 days -- 45 minutes each -- warmup, 30x50@1:00, warmdown

Ex-college sprinter tip- drop these to :55 and you don’t have to count them. Third time you hit the 6 you are done. It also helps visually look like you are making progress rather than doing the same thing over and over.

He's too modest to mention it but SH swam D1 himself and more recently set a Masters WR in 50-54 for the 100 IM (scm) in 1:00.XX. Further, when he was in the 45-49, he was touched out by Matt Biondi in the 100 scy IM at the USMS Short Course Nationals. Biondi went 54.9 vs SH went 55.0. So, he knows a thing or two about swimming. :)

Okay -I’ll remember not to try and be nice to the badasses :-)

Just thought you'd like to know that SH is very fast himself. Off the top of my head, the only STer I can think of who possibly has a more distinguished swimming pedigree is "tallswimmer"; he swam at Michigan and finished 4th in the '08 Trials in the 200 IM in 2:00.64, behind a trio of American and world record holders: Phelps, Lochte, and Eric Shanteau, who at the time held the AR in the 200 breast (lcm). If they had had a 4 x 200 IM relay, he'd have been on it and prob have an Oly gold now. At that same meet, he also went 49.9/1:49.X for 100/200 free; said he had hoped to go 1:46-ish in the 200 and contend for a relay spot but he just didn't have a good race in the 200 free. His IM time though was his all time personal best, which was obv cool to get in the last race of his career. He swam post-college and was 25/26 in '08.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [FLA Jill] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 1:10

Post #108 of 121 (2205 views)

FLA Jill wrote:

dayvic wrote:

Agree 100%, swimming is swimming, however I think there is one thing that seems to have been ignored in this whole thread which is the total lack of flexibility almost all adult onset swimmers have.

My observation looking at adult onset swimmers is most have awful balance/flexibility/core awareness. When I started doing shoulder/thoracic mobility testing a year ago I couldn't do a seated wall angel without my lumbar spine bowing out, and could barely get my elbows past my ears.. lets not even talk balancing in a tripod position. Working on this I think has made a huge difference to my balance/stroke in the pool as I don't snake on entry, have far better rotation etc..
I think that volume is important, but having done that route and making improvements, I now also think that mobility and body control is very very important if you wanna become a fast swimmer.

I really also think that shoulder flexibility is very much an underrated thing- know what you're doing and you can pick up some nice extra extention at the front of the stroke with pretty much no additional exertion on your part and without rolling so much you're scrambling to kick your way back into position.

I can pick out the childhood fish from the AOSes by whether or not they're showing the world their armpits on the recovery.

As for rep distance, I think my favorites are 100s because you can keep a nice slightly higher pace on them without thrashing yourself and 300s, which seems good and substantial and divide neatly into quarters in a short course pool so they can be done as a series fo 50 free-25 stroke to relieve boredom and just kind of balance things out.

Is it just shoulder or is it all the muscles around the chest and upper back. I am finding that the more I swim those muscles, while defined are also soft and maleable than they used to be and conform into going into a streamline.

It's almost like when you swim enough just like if you do yoga enough your muscles change from a land animal version (see below)

To the marine version above....LOL picking on Ronaldo since I don't think he could swim, but maybe I'm wrong because he's probably one of the most coordinated people on the planet.

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 3:52

Post #109 of 121 (2174 views)

But now I want to know how the heck he keeps track of 30 reps all leaving on the top? ADD female sprinter without impressive resume wants to know
---

Our pool has a digital clock. Start #1 on 15:00 and finish #30 on 45:00. The clock does the counting for you. The same can be accomplished with an analog clock with a little more squinting.

Take a short break from ST and read my blog:
http://tri-banter.blogspot.com/

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 4:06

Post #110 of 121 (2167 views)

lightheir wrote:

gary p wrote:

lightheir wrote:

Sorry, but if you went from can't swim at all to 1:30 race pace in <2yrs, you have talent. Maybe not olympic-champion talent, but you're more talented than at least 85% (fair guesstimate)of typical AG-triathletes.

Put it this way, there are quite a few tri clubs and coaches out there with hundreds (thousands+ in aggregate) of general AG-triathletes that equal or exceed your swim dedication and time commitment, and only a small minority of them will be able to have your rate of swim improvement. Even with top coaches like Gerry Rodriguez.

And most of these folks swim 2:00/100 or slower on race day, dead MOP.

If I swim at 2:00/100 pace, I literally sink.

Is it just me?

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 11:34

Post #111 of 121 (2068 views)

lightheir wrote:

zedzded wrote:

fulla wrote:

zedzded wrote:

Too many "triathlon" swim coaches stick to a typical swim program, 50s, 100s, rarely anything more than 200. A swim set a sprinter would do, someone who races no more than 100m in a race, yet people who swim predominantly in wetsuits and swim 3.8km in the ocean are doing the same swim set...

Well, that's what Grant Hackett did mainly...50s, 100s and 200s. You can get really fit doing justs 50s, 100s and 200s in training.

Yeah for sure. More than one way to skin a cat. I guess I see a lot of MOP/BOP swimmers squad swimming do the stereotypical 10 x 100m main set or whatever, they swim 3 times a week, come race day they bimble round the course and come out the swim breathing out their arse, then struggle for the first portion of the bike. Even decent bikers struggle. Perhaps for the weaker swimmers, doing 50s and 100s isn't as beneficial as say a main set with 5 x 400. Obviously mix it up with some speed work. I reckon you get an average tri swimmer, get them doing a main set of 400s or 500s, they would really struggle. And if they struggle with that, they'll struggle come race day when they have to swim 3.8km.

I def agree. Beginner/BOP swimmers benefit a lot from longer (but not crazy long) TIMED sets.

The problem with BOP/beginners doing 100s is that they don't know how to pace them correctly, and in most cases, when the going gets hard, they start elongating the rest breaks AND slowing down the pace (even though they feel like they're working harder.)

When you have 20 x 100, that's like 40 opportunities to slack off - even if you hit the times on all 20, beginners may taken extra long breaks between them to rest up.

In a 5 x 300, you have less chances to cheat. This is also a big reason why flip turns are so beneficial for not-great swimmers - that 1sec/wall touch rest is adds up quick to 4sec/100!

Give them an aquanome. It will keep their rests more honest

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 14:34

Post #112 of 121 (1988 views)

I would tend to disagree. Repeats longer than 125-150 yards/meters for most triathletes is about the longest in terms of technique that can be efficiently held together with 20-30 seconds rest. In my experience when you extend out the repeats to 300-400+ yards/meters technique and focus breaks down significantly, especially as the set continues. Then you have athletes practicing sloppy, less efficient technique for a significant portion of their time in the water. The 20-30 seconds is about the minimum the brain needs to consolidate the adaptation to the movement skill and keep an intense focus on the movement.. In my view, you aren’t just training the body from an aerobic capacity standpoint. A coach needs to consider the training of the brain as the primary, since that’s where a good portion of the skill set resides, and the body will come along with it.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 14:56

Post #113 of 121 (1974 views)

More rest for longer sets. Although 30 sec rest doesn't sound too bad for a 300-400.

Agree that if it were <10sec for 400s+, you'd get form breakdown unless you really slowed down the pace.

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 15:04

Post #114 of 121 (1964 views)

Again, in my experience, the amount of rest doesn’t really matter. It’s the distance and the ability of the athlete to focus for that length of time on their stroke mechanics that is the issue. 300-400+ yard repeats are primarily focusing on aerobic capacity at the expense of the brain being able to focus on the stroke. An athlete will not go as fast, in term of pacing, on a 100 vs a 400. You get better results when the athlete is able to pace faster. The mechanics/technique are improved and they just repeated that over and over.

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 16:29

Post #115 of 121 (1922 views)

I agree. There is no benefit to practicing swimming poorly. I am surprised that so many readily accept that swimming is the most technical of the three disciplines, but yet think the way to get fast is to do long repeats with poor form thus ingraining bad habits.

Even back in the day when doing 15-20k per day was the norm, very little of that was intervals over 200 yards and that is for swimmers with the best form in the world.

Practicing swimming poorly will only result in poor swimming.

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Sep 12, 18 19:41

Post #116 of 121 (1875 views)

Tim, I heard an interview with New Zealand ITU coach Tim Brazier yesterday. He was talking about trying to get one of his athletes (Sam Ward maybe) to use his open water stroke more often in the pool and to develop more of an "oppositional stroke".

Common wisdom is that ITU is where the swim is most crucial, and typically good ITU swimmers are front pack when they go to long course. Is this a pointy end of the spear, top of the tree fruit thing?

I know I'm a regular guy who would benefit from adding a swim per week. I was gobsmacked to do 2:43 for a 200 today.

Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 18 4:34

Post #117 of 121 (1786 views)

desert dude wrote:

The #1 thing I got from this article is the theme in this thread that triathletes will do just about anything to justify not swimming more even though an extra hour in the pool can yield way more improvement in their overall race time then 2 extra hours of riding.

I ran a race today. 20 people beat me. All 20 had faster swim times than I did. Should I run more?

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [RBR] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 18 6:51

Post #118 of 121 (1716 views)

These are my recent masters times...
1500m
(SCM)
2017 (40)- 16:58.90 (3rd FINA Masters ranking)
2018 (41) - 17:05.xx
LCM
2017 - 17:32.00 (2nd FINA Masters ranking)

800m
(SCM)
2018 - 8:51.14

FINA ranking is world ranking for M40-44

___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [MI_Mumps] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 18 9:22

Post #119 of 121 (1664 views)

I'd have to hear the interview to have a little more context about what exactly he was talking about.

Congratulations on your 200 time. That's great. Keep up the good work.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [xpda] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 18 21:20

Post #120 of 121 (1572 views)

xpda wrote:

desert dude wrote:

The #1 thing I got from this article is the theme in this thread that triathletes will do just about anything to justify not swimming more even though an extra hour in the pool can yield way more improvement in their overall race time then 2 extra hours of riding.

I ran a race today. 20 people beat me. All 20 had faster swim times than I did. Should I run more?

ROTFL...Yes, it is obvious you should run and bike more since they are your biggest bang for your training buck. Only swim during races, no need to overdo it.

"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

Re: The Myth of Triathlon Swimming: Swimming is Swimming [xpda] [ In reply to ]

Sep 13, 18 21:36

Post #121 of 121 (1568 views)

xpda wrote:

desert dude wrote:

The #1 thing I got from this article is the theme in this thread that triathletes will do just about anything to justify not swimming more even though an extra hour in the pool can yield way more improvement in their overall race time then 2 extra hours of riding.

I ran a race today. 20 people beat me. All 20 had faster swim times than I did. Should I run more?

your points are unrelated. base your training on where you can gain the most improvement, not where you are losing time to others who may have different inherent abilities to you.

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.