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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
Not all tread patterns are created equally. The GP4000 SII was an accident as far as we know.

If it's the tread that's special I wonder why they didn't replicate it on other tires? The GP4000 has another advantage which might be the primary one, and that is a thick tread with a shape that gives it a more "pointy" profile. Tires with thin tread and supple casings (and low Crr) tend to be very rounded. Particularly the "open tubulars".
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Not all tread patterns are created equally. The GP4000 SII was an accident as far as we know.


If it's the tread that's special I wonder why they didn't replicate it on other tires? The GP4000 has another advantage which might be the primary one, and that is a thick tread with a shape that gives it a more "pointy" profile. Tires with thin tread and supple casings (and low Crr) tend to be very rounded. Particularly the "open tubulars".

That too (re thick tread). At least a two companies actually have copied the GP4000 tread pattern. One of them was... Wolf Pack?... some tire company started by a former Conti engineer. I forget the other company/tire but it was someone like Maxis. We just happen to know that the GP4000 S tread works but that doesn't mean others don't work. If you look at the tread on the Attack II it's nearly identical to the Schwalbe Ironman tire.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [benb] [ In reply to ]
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If you can still find one, the 24c Conti GP Force (gen 2) makes a fine front tire even though it was designed for the rear.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [benb] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm, I didn´t do any research on that but I use 23 front because it matches the rim. With 19mm internal width the 23mm tire effectively becomes 25+mm anyway. And this matches perfectly the 26mm outer rim-width. Then again I am only 70kg so weight is no real issue. Rear is 25mm, and both are GP TT.

I rode GP 4KIIs before and couldn´t tell which one is faster. The TT however rolls and feels smoother, and I just hope that equals faster ;-)
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
If you can still find one, the 24c Conti GP Force (gen 2) makes a fine front tire even though it was designed for the rear.

I did exactly this recently.. Nashbar was selling the 22/24mm Force/Attacks cheap so I picked up another Force and put it on the front.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [WelshinPhilly] [ In reply to ]
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WelshinPhilly wrote:
gary p wrote:
If you can still find one, the 24c Conti GP Force (gen 2) makes a fine front tire even though it was designed for the rear.


I did exactly this recently.. Nashbar was selling the 22/24mm Force/Attacks cheap so I picked up another Force and put it on the front.

That was a sweet deal. I picked up a pair of Force tires. Went back to order a couple more to stash away for later, but they were sold out. Thinking of getting a 25c TT for the rear and saving the Force that's currently there for later use on the front.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [Plissken74] [ In reply to ]
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So are you saying the 23mm GP 4000sii is the fastest tire to have on a front wheel assuming a 25mm rim when considering both aero and rr? I cant imagine the aero difference would make up for 2-3 watts of rolling resistance difference. I'm looking for the absolute fastest setup which i guess is a TT on the back and still trying to figure out the front.

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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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Depends.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
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p3c w/ omega x. 25mm wide generic u shaped chinese clinchers. presumably good roads for the race (indian wells 70.3). averaging ~25-26mph.

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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
I'm looking for the absolute fastest setup which i guess is a TT on the back and still trying to figure out the front.

Would be a 25mm Corsa Speed on the back, and probably either a 23mm CS or a 20mm SS on the front.

If you are more risk averse, the 23mm Attack on the front and 25mm GPTT.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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rruf's suggestions above are perfect. Personally, I have not had good look with the CS. PITA to mount and, once mounted, very flat prone.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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You think the CS are worth it over other options even without tubeless wheels? bicycle rolling resistance says add 1.5-2 watts for latex which puts them just a tad under the GP TT? I suppose that means the aero pattern is that much better?

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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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I've got a new 23mm Conti Supersonic if anyone wants to buy it. It's the new version.

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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
You think the CS are worth it over other options even without tubeless wheels? bicycle rolling resistance says add 1.5-2 watts for latex which puts them just a tad under the GP TT? I suppose that means the aero pattern is that much better?

The CS won't have an aero advantage over a GP TT in my opinion. You could get an oddball rim/tire combination where it is faster due to some unforeseen interaction but you're just as likely to get that with the GP TT as well. If you're running latex tubes my bet would be on the new Attack for a front tire.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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Okay. Sounds like a 23mm Attack and 23/25 TT on the back will be my move then. My p3c struggles with clearance for a 25mm 4000sii so I'd lean towards a 23mm but maybe the TT doesnt blow up nearly as much?

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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
Okay. Sounds like a 23mm Attack and 23/25 TT on the back will be my move then. My p3c struggles with clearance for a 25mm 4000sii so I'd lean towards a 23mm but maybe the TT doesnt blow up nearly as much?

23mm TT often ends up being much larger than that. 26mm on my Jet+ rims.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
You think the CS are worth it over other options even without tubeless wheels? bicycle rolling resistance says add 1.5-2 watts for latex which puts them just a tad under the GP TT? I suppose that means the aero pattern is that much better?

I don't think BRR's setup and protocol are that great. I've tested really thick latex tubes (~120g) vs really thin ones (~50g) on rollers and couldn't measure a difference. I think Tom has measured tubeless vs latex and also didn't measure a difference.

An advantage of using the CS on a non-tubeless rim is that they are easier to mount! If you want to use a fast tire on a too-tight tubeless rim you can try a Pista with the latex tube. It's just as fast as the CS, and maybe faster.

I don't think the Vittoria tires are very aero, but if your rim is wider than the tire at the brake track, and yaw is low, they are probably the fastest even on the front. My 23mm CS is only 24.2mmm wide on a Kinlin XC279 which is 17.0mm internal.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [realbdeal] [ In reply to ]
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realbdeal wrote:
You think the CS are worth it over other options even without tubeless wheels? bicycle rolling resistance says add 1.5-2 watts for latex which puts them just a tad under the GP TT? I suppose that means the aero pattern is that much better?

My understanding is the BRR doesn't test with latex so it sounds like to me they are just guessing.

Look at TomA's testing. He tested the vittoria corsaspeed tubeless and with a latex tube. There is zero measurable difference.

blog
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]
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GreenPlease wrote:
rruff wrote:
GreenPlease wrote:
Not all tread patterns are created equally. The GP4000 SII was an accident as far as we know.


If it's the tread that's special I wonder why they didn't replicate it on other tires? The GP4000 has another advantage which might be the primary one, and that is a thick tread with a shape that gives it a more "pointy" profile. Tires with thin tread and supple casings (and low Crr) tend to be very rounded. Particularly the "open tubulars".

That too (re thick tread). At least a two companies actually have copied the GP4000 tread pattern. One of them was... Wolf Pack?... some tire company started by a former Conti engineer. I forget the other company/tire but it was someone like Maxis. We just happen to know that the GP4000 S tread works but that doesn't mean others don't work. If you look at the tread on the Attack II it's nearly identical to the Schwalbe Ironman tire.

Kind of hoping Wolf Pack bring out a Super Sonic clone with the old 23 tyre width (the version before the current model).

Pirelli Have a very similar tyre to the gp4000ii.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [boing] [ In reply to ]
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I have to assume Hutchinson is their contract manufacturer. Personally I’d like to see Wolf Pack make a GP4000 Sii clone in 23mm, tubeless, and with no puncture protective layer. IMO that would be a very popular tire. In terms of aero + crr it would be better than a GP TT (by my my estimation) but with better flat protection.
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Re: 23 vs 25mm Conti GP TT for the front wheel? [Blabelzabel] [ In reply to ]
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so i have the aeolus 6 xxx which is 28 wide at the brake. They say they are designed for 25 mm tires. That being said, would a 23mm still have an aero advantage?
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