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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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From where I was, it sure looked that way. I was close behind him.
But you're right, I shouldn't assign blame with out knowing for sure if it was him.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [mks75] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, think it was the section just before the ramp climb, yes? It was a bit tight through there - especially if you can't hop the rumble strip.

There were an awful lot of people who just weren't either confident or competent with some of the more technical turns. Not saying I'm perfect, but those techy sections were fun when you could link the turns together. I could use those seconds...

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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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Yup, right before the ramp. The ambulance was still there when I came back round to start the next lap.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [mks75] [ In reply to ]
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Okay. It could have been an error in judgement on his part. Or it could have been someone failing to hold their line.

I say that as that guy on the Blue QR probably would have had the fastest bike of the day. He went something like 2:14 in Boulder 70.3. AC is considerably flatter, I believe. He also rides outdoors on technical roads a lot.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [mks75] [ In reply to ]
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I was one of those fast cyclists. I did a 2.16.xx

I too made a very very bad call that I deeply regret. I tried to pass three abreast and thought I had enough space to clear the truck in front of us (rumple strips). It wasn't. I slammed on the brakes, the bike fishtailed, and I barely avoided the truck... The folks on the right moved to the right and everybody avoided a trip to the ER.

Needless to say, very bad call. Had nightmares last night of that situation. Sorry to any and all folks around.

Difficult course to put people of such different levels together. Not enough room for the slow, medium, and fast folks.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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I was highly, highly annoyed at the amount of people, especially on (my) lap three who were riding 2, 3 abreast and chatting like it was a Sunday social ride.

The biggest offenders were ladies wearing a grey club tri kit.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
Also seeing a conversation about how many flats there were. I'm going to guess that it just felt like the frequency was high because of the multiloop bike course - it just feels like you have a bunch more incidents despite them not actually increasing relative to your average bike course.

I think I told somebody on my final loop on that stretch of pavement that I needed a new ass. There was a single line on the back side there that was the middle third of the lane that worked. Sadly, it appeared everybody who was blocking/not passing was also in that stretch of the lane at that point of time.


A 1:40 run still isn't "slow." It's slow relative to the front of the field (I feel your pain, I had a whole host of people blow my doors off on the run) but it's certainly not truly "slow." I honestly don't see a ton of utility in long bricks (you lose the physiological benefit after a while) and so I would instead just look at run frequency/volume.

in thinking about this a bit, you are probably right in that we don't see anyone more than once, except in a multi-loop course like this where you can see literally everyone on the course and will be more aware of the number of total flats in the race-really no way to compare the actual number of flats in any venue other than the general comments, though

And congrats on the fine first 70.3 Andrew! Beast on the swim and solid cycling. Work the run...it's always all about the run...
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [rrheisler] [ In reply to ]
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rrheisler wrote:
I think 2000 people would work on the existing course. I think we can get close on the revenue side of the equation. But then it's a matter of whether the contracts/caps deal with that kind of thing.

I'm seeing that there were 1970 finishers, so figure a bit over 2000 on the bike course before DNFs. Not a crazy number for a 70.3 event. Every WTC race I've done has congestion on the bike course, and this one didn't seem much worse than the others, despite the 3 laps. It got a bit crowded in spots on the last lap, but there were only a couple times I had to pause before making a pass. Not a big deal.
I will say I have no idea why those trucks need to be parked in the middle of the road, forcing everybody over and back across the rumble strips twice per lap.
A single lap course would be nice, but he tried that one year and the traffic complaints from the locals were too much to overcome. Holding a race in a populated area comes with some limitations, and I'm happy to deal with a little bike course congestion to be able to race a 70.3 in Atlantic City.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [dtoce] [ In reply to ]
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Any idea how the M30-34 slots got allocated?
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [TJL3] [ In reply to ]
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A cursory glance at the bib list suggest 2300+ registrations. So I stand corrected on what my number for a safe bike course would be. You'd need to get down to 1500, then.

That bike course was a crit with aerobars on the final loop. Just way too much of a delta going on between the head and the tail given the participant volume. Calling it a little congestion I think is being a bit unrealistic.

I raced the course when it was Challenge on the 59 mile bike course. I'm not looking for that. I'm looking for either a participant cap and pricing that leads to being able to utilize the existing bike course, or a way to cut down to 1.5/2 loops and maintain the existing participant base (and maybe that leads to a price increase that corresponds with it).

I like Delmo as much as the next guy - and I think he's done an admirable job building a race in AC. Doesn't mean that the race can't be criticized, either.

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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [RallySavage] [ In reply to ]
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RallySavage wrote:
I think it's a little dishonest to call that a "closed bike course", like he does in his marketing of the race, when you have cars zooming by at 80 mph 3 feet away. He also calls it a "sheltered swim", leaving the impression that it's easy. So people sign up thinking it's an easy swim to only find out later about the crazy currents.

And that silly "get to ride the Atlantic City Expressway toll free", really annoys me. Maybe I just getting too old.

I'm 100% with you on all of this. There are courses to promote as a calm / sheltered swim; this isn't it. There are races to promote as roads closed to traffic; this isn't it. Some people just get away with using false language and it somehow not getting considered to be disingenuous; seems he's got that going for him. He's also got a sprint/oly that uses the same roads, which gives any racer who wants to take advantage of it the chance to preview the course with fewer racers on it. But what it doesn't do is give people experience racing on a tight course with the large range of ability present now that M-dot is associated.

I can't think anyone will find this a popular idea, but just to throw it out there, what if races alternated between years they offered slots for each gender? I'm certain the money isn't there to run 2 days of racing, one for each gender, but what if - I mean how much would crowding be reduced - if there were no worlds slots for men one year? Sure lots of guys would still race, but would the tenor of the bike interactions change? I may be wrong and am prepared to be flamed for this, but maybe the women's slot year would draw more newbies but a smaller crowd overall, and the guy slot year would be heavy with type A's and fewer cycling novices?

As to the truck in the middle of the lane, I agree the placement is inconvenient to the racers and sets up an unfortunate dynamic with the rumble strip, but I suspect it's purpose is to disuage auto traffic from saying F this and these *explicative* cyclists, I'm exiting here (through a supposed gap of bikes).

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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Tsunami wrote:
As to the truck in the middle of the lane, I agree the placement is inconvenient to the racers and sets up an unfortunate dynamic with the rumble strip, but I suspect it's purpose is to disuage auto traffic from saying F this and these *explicative* cyclists, I'm exiting here (through a supposed gap of bikes).

That's exactly what it was.. it was discussed on the event's FB page sometime over the weekend, IIRC.

Those rumble strips are a nightmare, and I consider myself a decent bike handler (MTB background before triathlon).

In both the AC Tri and Challenge AC (where we had *150* people out on the 112 mile course, with no loops - what a great ride that was!) crossing over them at speed scared the shit out of me.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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Tsunami wrote:

I can't think anyone will find this a popular idea, but just to throw it out there, what if races alternated between years they offered slots for each gender? I'm certain the money isn't there to run 2 days of racing, one for each gender, but what if - I mean how much would crowding be reduced - if there were no worlds slots for men one year? Sure lots of guys would still race, but would the tenor of the bike interactions change? I may be wrong and am prepared to be flamed for this, but maybe the women's slot year would draw more newbies but a smaller crowd overall, and the guy slot year would be heavy with type A's and fewer cycling novices?


Actually I don't think this is a terrible idea at all. Let's pull on this thread a little. A few thoughts on this proposal:

How many people showed up to the race on Sunday looking for a slot to worlds? I certainly did. But is that a large percentage? How many of those wouldn't show up if it wasn't "their turn" to get slots that year? If Worlds is in a popular location like it is for 2019, I personally wouldn't have raced there and would have chosen a different 70.3 (excepting the fact that this race is in my backyard, so maybe I would have anyway). But if Worlds is in a less popular, or less accessible location (like SA, or 2020 when it's likely to be New Zealand), I probably would have still come to race simply because it is the local 70.3.

Actually on that note there might be some level of fairness that we lose when sometimes Worlds in in a popular location alternating with less popular locations and possibly never offering slots to the popular location for one gender or another just by pure bad luck.

Edit: That said, I am not sure it would solve the problem you are trying to solve. I am guessing the percentage of people that would sit this one out if it wasn't "their turn" is small enough to not make a huge difference. If I am remembering right, the top two or three overall didn't take slots. So clearly they showed up just to race.
Last edited by: g_lev: Sep 25, 18 5:18
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I can't think that the Worlds slot thing matters in the grand scheme of things. People know it's a fast course, it's a huge population center that offers a tune-up before Maryland and Florida, and it's relatively inexpensive to travel to. The race itself is slightly higher priced than an average 70.3 but when you factor in the availability of hotels/VRBOs it's an easier race, logistically, than even say LP 70.3 that pulls from a similar geographic region.

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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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I do not think most people out there were looking to take a slot to worlds. If I was top 10 I would have waited around to see if I could get a roll down in the M30-34 space. At 20th? Not a chance...I'm still not even close to good enough to toe the line at worlds.

As for it being the local race...an argument could be made that Eagleman (at just over 2 hours away) is also the local race for Philadelphians that offers pro card slots. If I am a serious racer looking for a pro card and a slot to worlds, I go there because the pros are there.

At the end of the day, those of us looking to have a friendlier bike course are going to need to be pickier with our race selection or have a pro card to be well ahead of the rest of us.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting reading the comments in this post.

Firstly big congrats to all the finishers tough wet day out there, and all those who volunteered etc:.

Nice job Dale Toce, see I told you to go to the awards ceremony, there is always a chance of a roll down and you got the slot along with Ryan Davis both Cyclonauts.

Re-the race, totally agree the swim start is a bottle neck at the start and the first couple of hundred yards was just carnage, I had to pull to the side and settle in, but once moving the chop was OK if you breath bilaterally.

Re-the bike the first lap is great, however laps 2 and 3 become a congestion problem with slower riders and passing sometime two of three wide on a single lane, then vehicular traffic flying by not 6 ft from you, and yes I saw that F-150 he was cruising (idiot). In some places especially the turns you had to be aware of the less experienced riders, as I almost got taken out when it started raining. I was happy to be off the bike and out of the crowds to be honest.

The run was flat and fast, maybe a little scary when making sharp turns on the on the boardwalk planks.

Re-race director, he was on the first out and back pier filming on his iphone, TBH in my opinion, a really genuine nice guy. For those folks who knock him, please take a step in his shoes.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:


Actually I don't think this is a terrible idea at all. Let's pull on this thread a little. A few thoughts on this proposal:

How many people showed up to the race on Sunday looking for a slot to worlds? I certainly did. But is that a large percentage? How many of those wouldn't show up if it wasn't "their turn" to get slots that year? If Worlds is in a popular location like it is for 2019, I personally wouldn't have raced there and would have chosen a different 70.3 (excepting the fact that this race is in my backyard, so maybe I would have anyway). But if Worlds is in a less popular, or less accessible location (like SA, or 2020 when it's likely to be New Zealand), I probably would have still come to race simply because it is the local 70.3.

Actually on that note there might be some level of fairness that we lose when sometimes Worlds in in a popular location alternating with less popular locations and possibly never offering slots to the popular location for one gender or another just by pure bad luck.

Edit: That said, I am not sure it would solve the problem you are trying to solve. I am guessing the percentage of people that would sit this one out if it wasn't "their turn" is small enough to not make a huge difference. If I am remembering right, the top two or three overall didn't take slots. So clearly they showed up just to race.


True, the top few didn't take slots. Maybe already had them from another race? Who races more desperately, the person who already has or doesn't want a slot, or the person killing themselves for years to attain some goal? Which is more likely to take chances during the bike segment on a crowded course?

I get that only a few people have a legitimate shot at going to worlds - you have to place very well. But I bet a bunch of people show up wondering, if they lay it all down, are they just as good or better than the next guy. (I believe it's known that guys tend to think they are equally capable as those around them, regardless of their experience.) So maybe 20-40 people, depending on the AG in question, may think they have a legitimate shot? Even 10 people per AG would be >100 people. Next take the incentive to cheat. Those guys are drafting, let me hop on to stay competitive (TX, anyone?). Basically I wonder if the slots contribute to egging people on, creating a more a hostile group of cyclists. Take the slots of one gender away, potentially reduce the incentive to be aggressive.

It was mainly a thought experiment. I agree, it may not solve the basic issue of this course being too narrow for the traffic.

ETA: I see your point about apparent fairness, with regard to a moving location for Worlds and is it desirable or not. It's a good one that I hadn't considered.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
Last edited by: Tsunami: Sep 25, 18 10:04
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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Tsunami wrote:
creating a more a hostile group of cyclists.

I want to poke at this just a little bit. It seems the chief complaint that I saw on the FB page was people riding fast past slow cyclists without really calling passes. Some passes were apparently inappropriate, but most of the complaints were simply from people that were not used to being near the front of a race before.

My perspective from the FOP was that this race went off like every other race. I had no issues passing people during the first loop, and had no issues when people passed me. Not one person announced when they passed me. I didn't think they needed to. I could easily hear them coming up anyway. I suspect that since we had so many people on a multi-loop course, that the people being passed by the FOP simply were not used to what it's like up near the front of a race. I did not find there to be any inordinate aggression from the people racing at the front, at least any more than usual.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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Was going to say this in the "on your left" thread but it's probably more appropriate here, specific to the AC race, and would take what g lev says a bit further.

It sounds like there were some accidents caused by aggressive riding/poor decision making, which is too bad. But there's also something to be said for preparing less experienced/competitive riders to ride safe in a race like this.

I heard a bit of a pre-race meeting while checking in my bike, and while there was general talk about there being plenty of space, and that people should stay to the right (realistically, many opt to ride in the right lane rather than the shoulder), they ought to let people know that they should expect to be passed by cyclists who may be significantly faster (it sounded like the emphasis was on staying right to stay away from cars, not that when you drift right you might force someone else into cars, cause problems behind you, etc.).

I rode 2:16:xx and glanced behind each time I moved left to pass. I think I was passed by one rider. There's always someone faster than you. Regardless of bike handling skills (I'm competent for triathlon but hardly a skilled cyclist), the thing that people really need in a race like AC is an awareness of other riders on the course.

I have a lot of tolerance for inexperienced riders and know it's my responsibility to be safe -- I make sure I don't cross someone's like or get caught in a turn with someone going a different speed, and I speed up or slow down as necessary so I don't get to one the rumble strip pinch points at the same time someone else, but I think races could do more to let people know what's expected/normal on the course.
Last edited by: dand: Sep 25, 18 11:26
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Just read all the posts. Huge congrats to Dale (dtoce) my Casco Bay swim partner on the Worlds 70.3 slot! Very well earned and deserved.

Swim - I ended up hitting the port-a-potty a second time and got to the swim area late. I tried to get through the crowd, which was a giant human gridlock and was looking at the 55 min wave. As a 35 min 70.3 swimmer, I was preparing for a tough swim, but luckily a dude with an AWA kit just started snaking though and I "drafted" off him, and together we rattled off a few hundred "excuse me" and "sorry's". Kudos to that dude who got me to the back of the ramp! This was the first triathlon race I've done, where if you didn't seed early, you physically could not access an earlier swim wave. It wasn't like that when I did the Challenge race in 2014; but the again, that race had a much smaller field.

Like some others, I found there to be a little extra contact. I also had trouble sighting the buoys on the far side heading back south. And I usually have no issues sighting. I was a little disappointed with 37+ minutes as I put in a lot of effort, but it beat the heck out of the 2.4 mile clusterf*ck Challenge swim with the crazy slack current.

Bike - I had a huge Bike PR (2:34). This course reminds me a lot of Eagleman. And even at Eagleman (1-loop) there's still traffic jams and crowding from start to finish! I can't help but wonder if E-man moved from an AG wave start to a rolling start based on time, if that would help solve the crowding, because typically faster swimmers, tend to bike faster. Regardless, as I mentioned in another post, the urban conditions and rain made this a hairy bike. Especially on the AC expressway!

Run - I enjoyed the boardwalk run. I had a solid run, with zero walking, and managed a semi-respectable 1:54.

Volunteers were ridiculously awesome. It's a great race, but it would be that much better if they can figure out how to steal back some of the old Challenge bike course.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [g_lev] [ In reply to ]
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g_lev wrote:
Tsunami wrote:
creating a more a hostile group of cyclists.

I want to poke at this just a little bit. It seems the chief complaint that I saw on the FB page was people riding fast past slow cyclists without really calling passes. Some passes were apparently inappropriate, but most of the complaints were simply from people that were not used to being near the front of a race before.

My perspective from the FOP was that this race went off like every other race. I had no issues passing people during the first loop, and had no issues when people passed me. Not one person announced when they passed me. I didn't think they needed to. I could easily hear them coming up anyway. I suspect that since we had so many people on a multi-loop course, that the people being passed by the FOP simply were not used to what it's like up near the front of a race. I did not find there to be any inordinate aggression from the people racing at the front, at least any more than usual.

g_lev, that FB post covers lots of topics now that it's >400 comments long. Started with people upset racers didn't call passes, to people offended they were told to stay right, some offended they were told they should glance back before pulling left, to passers and passees swearing at eachother, to people being clipped by passers cutting back right too aggressively and passees not dropping back enough, back to how can I drop back if you don't call your pass. Plus others: men peeing on the bike, jerks on $10k bikes. Basically all kinds of references to unsportsmanlike behavior.

You're right, maybe like most other races to you. You quickly pass by clumps of slower riders on 2 loop courses. When I was a very BOP bopper, my experience was being passed by an occassional faster cyclist lapping me. Single dude at a time, no big deal on 56 miles of pavement (full distance race). I think as you suggest, the issue here is the short multilap course puts many faster riders near slower ones for a larger percentage of the slower riders ride and yeah, they're not used to it. Who would be? I've never done a multiloop 56 mi ride before - are they a bit unusual?

The stories of people getting clipped/cut off always reminds me of Kristie at CAC yr 1. Stuff that just shouldn't happen.

To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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I started calling passes on the second lap whenever there was more than 1 cyclist-wide traffic ahead of me. I had a few people yell at me for "going too fast" and "that's how accidents happen". Like others have mentioned, I know the MOP and BOP riders usually don't get mixed with the front guys but I'm not changing my race and slowing down to make others feel safer.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [Tsunami] [ In reply to ]
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Tsunami wrote:
g_lev wrote:
Tsunami wrote:
creating a more a hostile group of cyclists.


I want to poke at this just a little bit. It seems the chief complaint that I saw on the FB page was people riding fast past slow cyclists without really calling passes. Some passes were apparently inappropriate, but most of the complaints were simply from people that were not used to being near the front of a race before.

My perspective from the FOP was that this race went off like every other race. I had no issues passing people during the first loop, and had no issues when people passed me. Not one person announced when they passed me. I didn't think they needed to. I could easily hear them coming up anyway. I suspect that since we had so many people on a multi-loop course, that the people being passed by the FOP simply were not used to what it's like up near the front of a race. I did not find there to be any inordinate aggression from the people racing at the front, at least any more than usual.


g_lev, that FB post covers lots of topics now that it's >400 comments long. Started with people upset racers didn't call passes, to people offended they were told to stay right, some offended they were told they should glance back before pulling left, to passers and passees swearing at eachother, to people being clipped by passers cutting back right too aggressively and passees not dropping back enough, back to how can I drop back if you don't call your pass. Plus others: men peeing on the bike, jerks on $10k bikes. Basically all kinds of references to unsportsmanlike behavior.

You're right, maybe like most other races to you. You quickly pass by clumps of slower riders on 2 loop courses. When I was a very BOP bopper, my experience was being passed by an occassional faster cyclist lapping me. Single dude at a time, no big deal on 56 miles of pavement (full distance race). I think as you suggest, the issue here is the short multilap course puts many faster riders near slower ones for a larger percentage of the slower riders ride and yeah, they're not used to it. Who would be? I've never done a multiloop 56 mi ride before - are they a bit unusual?

The stories of people getting clipped/cut off always reminds me of Kristie at CAC yr 1. Stuff that just shouldn't happen.

i have to find this thread on FB. i wasnt there this year but am no stranger to peeing on the bike and a few years ago at quassy got an earful for a lady about it. told her to quit drafting.

when i did IMAC last year it was a mess on the bike. thing is that its a very welcoming race for a 1st timer at that distance. the other problem is the rumble strip. that's a pain to keep crossing over if you truly stay to the right and come out to pass on the left. its nearly impossible to keep a line though. 1st loop was fine but the 2nd got very full with the faster / earlier starters on their last loop, people like me, then the last folks entering the course. i'd love to see them find a way to stretch the course out a bit to make it 2 loops, and maybe a wider entry to the water. that would make it a lot safer.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) [ejd_mil] [ In reply to ]
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Surprised. This thread is now onto page 3 and not one mention that ST’s own Pubes was the overall winner last year. Looks like he didn’t race this year. If I remember he was pretty negative about the multi loop bike course pre race but generally more positive (or at least trending towards neutral) post race. Would’ve been interesting to hear his perspective on this year.

I thought course felt much more crowded this year but if you rode smart and knew to be more conservative and take caution on sketchy parts like the truck and rumble strips you were fine. I rode almost exact split as last year on less watts and HR.... which helped me on the run.

My personal complaint about this course is all the dropped bottles and junk that people lose, plus people weaving trying to maneuver bottles behind the seat... honestly i think people should 1) make sure their cages and accessories are properly installed (I know sometime a bottle might launch but losing cages, seat bags, top tube bags shouldn’t happen) and 2) if you’re not experienced with maneuvering the BTS bottles or if you’re not a strong bike handler, there’s no harm or sham in stopping to refill or having bottles on the frame... the seconds of aero advantage gained is lost when you’re sitting up, weaving, slowing down and taking a minute to replace your bottle... and it seemed to me people always chose poor times to decide to grab behind the seat... at least make sure you’ve got good space and not approaching some difficult section

Overall I still really enjoy this race and count me in as a Delmo fanboy... really think all his events are high quality.... we in this region are fortunate to have someone putting on these quality events in our backyard.
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Re: Atlantic City 70.3 (AC70.3) Why Delmo is Awesome! [ In reply to ]
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laughable wrote:
Support the local races; Do TOUGHMAN.

IM is just buying everything up and making them all cookie cutter crap.

If you want a race experience where the organizers care, stay local.

And this race director, Delmonte is an ass.

When something gets messed up, he fixes it. And at his own expense. So when the pint beer glasses did not arrive in time for the finish, he's going to mail them out to EVERYONE. Can't imagine how much that will cost but how many other race directors would do that? It might seem like a small item to some. But I drink a lot of beer and having a AC70.3 pint glass makes it that much better. He does truly care. Nice job Steve. You rock! See you next year. https://www.facebook.com/...os/2401917589825211/
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