Theres no guarantee of that! At least a broken clock is right twice a day. 220-age night never be right...unless I die at 220. At which point 0 is the correct answer.

Determining actual max is absolutely NO FUN!

Exactly, agree on both counts. That's why I said, the only thing less reliable than an observed max HR is 220-age.

-E

This is why I set my zones based on pace... And back into the equivalent hr. Then you throw in heat effects... and cardiac drift, if you live somewhere hot, like me, in Texas.

I tend to use a combination of things. RPE + known external factors + weather + HR. Magic sauce!

Heat is a huge factor, especially if you're 85 kilos like me :)

-E

Have a look at Matt Fitzgerald site: http://mattfitzgerald.org/8020training/

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"PAIN is nothing compared to what it feels like to QUIT"

Well... I'm not 85kg, more like 68. But, yes, I agree on the combo for managing day to day.

When its 98f outside you cant go clocking off at threshold PACE. RPE and HR will tell you to slow the F down. For me that temp slows me down by 90s per mile. I try to do a run or two on the treadmill every week to get a Guage of pace / hr improvement in constant conditions.

I try and keep in mind the few benefits you get from training in the heat while trudging along. Again, while trying to get some cool temp, pace work down on the TM.

This makes a lot of sense to me. Thank you!

Ahhhh! Lightbulb! This makes a lot of sense. I do swimming, cycling and weightlifting, presumably like a lot of people on this forum, so volume for running suffers. I'm lucky if I get a 25 mile week.

Excellent site!
Thank you.

Bingo. You're getting it. The idea is, if an athlete is running less than 50 miles a week, the biggest problem is lack of volume, but, having said that, almost anything will work to help improve their running because they're so undertrained.

-Eric

Totally. For the life of me, I can't understand how, mechanistically, training slower than race pace is ever going to help you run faster. Science isn't always intuitive, but you have to challenge the energy systems that are going to dominate your race. There is NEVER a time that I'm going to do ANY race in zone two, so why screw around with it in training? The only caveat I can think of is training the skeletal system to acclimate to impact. But the cardiovascular system? Just doesn't make any sense.

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https://connect.garmin.com/modern/profile/domingjm

For me that number is closer to 35 mpw in the context of balanced triathlon training (barryP style run plan). I see dramatic changes in pace / hr once I get over that threshold (following a typical build profile). I'm sure that individualistic to some degree. But for me, pace / hr is largely static below that threshold and falls precipitously (10s per mile per week) near / above that.

Same here. When I was really focused on 5k and 10k distances, I would basically have two different workouts: 5k or 10k timetrial or one to two mile repeats. That's it. Hard, hard efforts, maybe three times per week and never more than about 15 miles per week. About a year ago I tried adding a bunch of zone 2 miles, and only did about one hard workout per week. Added a minute and a half to my 5k and more than 2 minutes on to my 10k. If I run slow, I race slow.

Edit: very curious if anyone else has had this experience.

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I have definitely had the experience of increasing volume while decreasing pace and finding that my running in races suffers. I used to race mostly short-course (sprint and Oly) but in the last couple of years have been focusing on longer distance stuff (half-iron, ITU long distance and IM), so my running volume has for sure increased. But last week I did my first Oly in three years and was gutted to run a 44 minute 10k. I always ran right around 40 minutes in Olys and 38 or so for an open 10k, so 44 is not good. I think the simple answer to the question of how to train is: train as hard as you can, as fast as you can without getting yourself injured, sick or pissed off to the point where it's no longer fun. This means that easy runs (zone 2) are important because no one can run fast every day and avoid injury/illness/burn out. I read a really good article about a Swedish age-grouper and his mantra was "do every single workout right", so when it's a hard workout, really go hard, be honest with your effort and push yourself. But when it's an easy day, really go easy and see the workout's function as setting up your next quality session. I like the 80/20 rule but find that for me it varies. Some weeks I can do 30% of my workout volume in the "hard" range but other weeks I only manage 10%. Learning to listen to your body and actually act on what it is telling you is probably the key, especially for us "older" guys (I'm 43).