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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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What part of his conduct is a "scam?"//

I don't know, but you seem to have it all figured out. The part of the facts that are most relevant to this whole thing, is what was their agreement? You filled in the gaps on what you "most likely" think it is, and wonder how he could have ever perpetrated any fraud. I'm just telling you how that could be if you fill in the blanks with a different scenario. If they had an agreement to bilk donations that were supposed to go to him exclusively, but they all had agreed to split it up 50/50, how in your world is that not fraud???
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [Nova] [ In reply to ]
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Nova wrote:
After the fiasco with Wounded Warriors, would you donate to them? They were skimming the top and had nothing done, cleared of charges after spending a million dollars on a Colorado "conference".

I don't for the very reason you stated. I never said Wounded Warriors. I said wounded vets. I donate to DAV.

Nova wrote:
I understand the concept, I just think that if you are stupid enough to give money to someone on their word, then you pretty much deserve to be taken advantage of. To a reason. If they were taking grannies money and she couldn't live, then it's different.


I fully understand what you are saying and agree that there has to be some responsibility on the part of the person donating. But, think about what would happen if there were no laws on this topic. How could anyone ever trust any collection for any charitable matter?

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?

The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.

----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
Nova wrote:
After the fiasco with Wounded Warriors, would you donate to them? They were skimming the top and had nothing done, cleared of charges after spending a million dollars on a Colorado "conference".


I don't for the very reason you stated. I never said Wounded Warriors. I said wounded vets. I donate to DAV.

Nova wrote:
I understand the concept, I just think that if you are stupid enough to give money to someone on their word, then you pretty much deserve to be taken advantage of. To a reason. If they were taking grannies money and she couldn't live, then it's different.



I fully understand what you are saying and agree that there has to be some responsibility on the part of the person donating. But, think about what would happen if there were no laws on this topic. How could anyone ever trust any collection for any charitable matter?

You could do a little basic search on the subject.

I guess they have to be held accountable, but to what account?

Glad I'm not in on this jury, if it gets that far.

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace." Jimi Hendrix
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
monty wrote:
But, think about what most likely went down. Homeless guy. No shelter. No money. No access to a computer. Etc. Couple comes up to him and says, look, we can set up a GoFundMe page for you. We will tell your story about being homeless, use your picture, and ask for money. We will give you half and we will keep the other half, you know, for our efforts. Cool? //

Ok, so you just made up a bunch of shit to fit your narrative, is there any proof this is how it went down? So now I get to make some shit up to support mine I guess. The couple goes to him and says, if you keep your mouth shut and go along with this scam, we can open a fund in your name and we can bilk a lot of suckers out of a bunch of money, and we can split it with you, cool??


Why did you cut off the most important part about what I said? Were you trying to be intellectually dishonest or does it just come naturally from hanging out with Dan so much? Or did you just want make an asshole comment? I also stated in an earlier response that the information available at this point supports the sequence of events I stated, which is why I questioned the charge.

What I said was:

"Again, we don't know all the facts. But, think about what most likely went down. Homeless guy. No shelter. No money. No access to a computer. Etc. Couple comes up to him and says, look, we can set up a GoFundMe page for you. We will tell your story about being homeless, use your picture, and ask for money. We will give you half and we will keep the other half, you know, for our efforts. Cool? "

Your version of "the facts" does not legally alter anything. What part of his conduct is a "scam?" Is he not homeless? Is he not getting some of the funds?

There's no honor among thieves.

From what I've read, the scheme -- which appears to have been a scam in its entirety -- went like this:

The three conspired with one another to create a false story in order to raise, at least initially, $10,000. They did it with the expectation they'd garner that money from unsuspecting dupes.

The $10,000 figure grew greatly, however, after the story went viral and everyone rushed in to give money to help the "homeless man with a heart of gold" (Johnny Bobbitt).

The problem? Well, the couple and Bobbitt suddenly had this huge sum of money and national attention to go with it. Bobbitt eventually went to the Philly Inquirer and said he was back on the street while the couple was spending his money on vacations. In return, the couple went on TV and said Bobbitt had a drug problem and was using the cash to get high. (This is the part in any story about thievery where the thieves eventually fall out and in on each other.)

It appears there were no victims in this story, just a collection of con men (and women) looking to take advantage of everyone else and, eventually, each other.

And like I've always said: Thank G-d most criminals are stupid.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
What part of his conduct is a "scam?"//

I don't know, but you seem to have it all figured out. The part of the facts that are most relevant to this whole thing, is what was their agreement? You filled in the gaps on what you "most likely" think it is, and wonder how he could have ever perpetrated any fraud. I'm just telling you how that could be if you fill in the blanks with a different scenario. If they had an agreement to bilk donations that were supposed to go to him exclusively, but they all had agreed to split it up 50/50, how in your world is that not fraud???

I DON'T have it figured all out, which is why I asked the question! I'm not claiming I know the answer. What I said, very clearly, is that based on the information available, I don't see how there could be fraud. I also clearly said there must be more to this story. You are the one who seems to have take a firm position in this case - i.e., that it must be fraud! Ok, if YOU are so certain, then explain it to this simpleton.

How is Bobbitt - the recipient of the donation - part of a scam to "bilk" donations that were supposed to go to him exclusively? Wounded Warriors is under HUGE scrutiny b/c of how much of each donation is retained by the organization. Some would it a scam and would have a good basis for doing so. Does that mean the actual wounded service members, who were aware how much they were getting, were complicit in the "scam?"

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [Nova] [ In reply to ]
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Nova wrote:

Yes and no. Yes, it meets the intent to deceive requirement, but no, it doesn't meet the dollar amount threshold to constitute a felony. I suppose it could be a misdemeanor fraud, if such a crime exists in the jurisdiction. That said, you probably wouldn't see it prosecuted because of the low dollar amount. That doesn't mean it isn't a crime.

Here, the level of national attention this one got (and the high amount of money raised) pretty much compels the government to prosecute it, if for no other reason, to send a message to other would be DONATORS.

FIFY


No you didn't. You just changed the identity of those for whom the message was intended. I would argue that the message is intended for BOTH groups.

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Last edited by: Danno: Nov 15, 18 13:08
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.

Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man. So, he did not defraud anyone. I cannot tell how much Bobbitt actually received, but, one report says $40k and another says $75k. Regardless of the amount, every dime received by Bobbitt was received by a homeless vet from a person who intended to give money to a homeless vet. So, Bobbitt did not receive any ill-gotten funds.

It seems the prosecutor agrees. According to your link:

In a statement, GoFundMe said that all donors to the campaign will receive a full refund. A spokesman for the company also said the prosecutor's office is seeking to "recover every dollar withdrawn by Ms. McClure and Mr. D'Amico," but didn't mention money used by Bobbitt.

Thus, the prosecutor is going after all the funds taken by the couple, but does not appear to be seeking any of the funds actually received by Bobbitt. This indicates to me that the prosecutor does not see the funds received by Bobbitt as ill-gotten goods.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.


Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man who fraudulently posed as a good samaritan deserving of monetary donations.


Does the above matter?





----------------------------------
"Go yell at an M&M"
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
monty wrote:
What part of his conduct is a "scam?"//

I don't know, but you seem to have it all figured out. The part of the facts that are most relevant to this whole thing, is what was their agreement? You filled in the gaps on what you "most likely" think it is, and wonder how he could have ever perpetrated any fraud. I'm just telling you how that could be if you fill in the blanks with a different scenario. If they had an agreement to bilk donations that were supposed to go to him exclusively, but they all had agreed to split it up 50/50, how in your world is that not fraud???


I DON'T have it figured all out, which is why I asked the question! I'm not claiming I know the answer. What I said, very clearly, is that based on the information available, I don't see how there could be fraud. I also clearly said there must be more to this story. You are the one who seems to have take a firm position in this case - i.e., that it must be fraud! Ok, if YOU are so certain, then explain it to this simpleton.

How is Bobbitt - the recipient of the donation - part of a scam to "bilk" donations that were supposed to go to him exclusively? Wounded Warriors is under HUGE scrutiny b/c of how much of each donation is retained by the organization. Some would it a scam and would have a good basis for doing so. Does that mean the actual wounded service members, who were aware how much they were getting, were complicit in the "scam?"


So, here's the NJ statute for the crime charged:

Quote:

2C:20-4. Theft by deception.

A person is guilty of theft if he purposely obtains property of another by deception. A person deceives if he purposely:

a. Creates or reinforces a false impression, including false impressions as to law, value, intention or other state of mind, and including, but not limited to, a false impression that the person is soliciting or collecting funds for a charitable purpose; but deception as to a person's intention to perform a promise shall not be inferred from the fact alone that he did not subsequently perform the promise;

b. Prevents another from acquiring information which would affect his judgment of a transaction; or

c. Fails to correct a false impression which the deceiver previously created or reinforced, or which the deceiver knows to be influencing another to whom he stands in a fiduciary or confidential relationship.

The term "deceive" does not, however, include falsity as to matters having no pecuniary significance, or puffing or exaggeration by statements unlikely to deceive ordinary persons in the group addressed.


Under this statute, and based on the "facts" I know about, I kind of agree with JSA that it's hard to see how Bobbitt is guilty of theft by deception. I think the case against the couple is a little better, particularly since they didn't give the money to Bobbitt. However, I'd note that the italicized clause in subsection (a) seems to suggest that the prosecutor needs to have more than just the fact that not all the money went to Bobbitt if he wants to prove their intent.

To me, this seems like a tough criminal case, but I would think a civil case on behalf of the donators would have a better chance of a verdict in their favor . . . just not sure it would be worth it. Most of the money is apparently gone and the couple is likely judgment proof.

''The enemy isn't conservatism. The enemy isn't liberalism. The enemy is bulls**t.''

—Lars-Erik Nelson
Last edited by: Danno: Nov 15, 18 13:26
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.


Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man. So, he did not defraud anyone. I cannot tell how much Bobbitt actually received, but, one report says $40k and another says $75k. Regardless of the amount, every dime received by Bobbitt was received by a homeless vet from a person who intended to give money to a homeless vet. So, Bobbitt did not receive any ill-gotten funds.

It seems the prosecutor agrees. According to your link:

In a statement, GoFundMe said that all donors to the campaign will receive a full refund. A spokesman for the company also said the prosecutor's office is seeking to "recover every dollar withdrawn by Ms. McClure and Mr. D'Amico," but didn't mention money used by Bobbitt.

Thus, the prosecutor is going after all the funds taken by the couple, but does not appear to be seeking any of the funds actually received by Bobbitt. This indicates to me that the prosecutor does not see the funds received by Bobbitt as ill-gotten goods.

I dunno. It sounds to me like the couple had a plan to scam money but they needed a willing co-conspirator in the form of some homeless guy they could build a feel-good story around, and so they approached Johnny Bobbitt. Looks like a cynical ploy to take advantage of the better nature most people actually possess, and it's really easy to give money through GoFundMe. And look what happened. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They succeeded too much, in fact, and the greed of at least two of the three got the better of them, and then the predictable falling out occurred...

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [klehner] [ In reply to ]
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klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.


Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man who fraudulently posed as a good samaritan deserving of monetary donations.


Does the above matter?





Ha! Great movie!

Yes, your addition does matter and it will be used by the prosecutor. But, is that enough? I'm not sure it is. See Danno's response with the citation to the applicable law. I certainly can see the argument. But, I wouldn't bring the charges against Bobbitt to a jury. I would have him plea and rat on the other two, which is what I suspect will happen. A good defense attorney could shred the prosecution, especially before a jury.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
JSA wrote:
klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.


Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man. So, he did not defraud anyone. I cannot tell how much Bobbitt actually received, but, one report says $40k and another says $75k. Regardless of the amount, every dime received by Bobbitt was received by a homeless vet from a person who intended to give money to a homeless vet. So, Bobbitt did not receive any ill-gotten funds.

It seems the prosecutor agrees. According to your link:

In a statement, GoFundMe said that all donors to the campaign will receive a full refund. A spokesman for the company also said the prosecutor's office is seeking to "recover every dollar withdrawn by Ms. McClure and Mr. D'Amico," but didn't mention money used by Bobbitt.

Thus, the prosecutor is going after all the funds taken by the couple, but does not appear to be seeking any of the funds actually received by Bobbitt. This indicates to me that the prosecutor does not see the funds received by Bobbitt as ill-gotten goods.


I dunno. It sounds to me like the couple had a plan to scam money but they needed a willing co-conspirator in the form of some homeless guy they could build a feel-good story around, and so they approached Johnny Bobbitt. Looks like a cynical ploy to take advantage of the better nature most people actually possess, and it's really easy to give money through GoFundMe. And look what happened. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They succeeded too much, in fact, and the greed of at least two of the three got the better of them, and then the predictable falling out occurred...

I agree but, in my view, Bobbitt was used as mislead almost as much as the donors. Consider his position - homeless, broke, hungry. Sounds like the couple preyed on his situation to make him a pawn, not a co-conspirator. I'm fairly certain I could convince a jury of the same thing.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: $400k Go Fund Me for homeless man goes awry [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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JSA wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
JSA wrote:
klehner wrote:
JSA wrote:
See my questions to jpo, above. How is Bobbitt being charged with criminal fraud?


The deal was that the woman supposedly ran out of gas on the road, and the homeless guy helped her out. The story went viral, and they set up a page to help him. All bogus.

This will explain it better.


Thank you. That fills in some of the blanks. So, we know the $20 story was bogus. But, Bobbitt was homeless. The portion of the money donated that actually went to him went to help a homeless man. So, he did not defraud anyone. I cannot tell how much Bobbitt actually received, but, one report says $40k and another says $75k. Regardless of the amount, every dime received by Bobbitt was received by a homeless vet from a person who intended to give money to a homeless vet. So, Bobbitt did not receive any ill-gotten funds.

It seems the prosecutor agrees. According to your link:

In a statement, GoFundMe said that all donors to the campaign will receive a full refund. A spokesman for the company also said the prosecutor's office is seeking to "recover every dollar withdrawn by Ms. McClure and Mr. D'Amico," but didn't mention money used by Bobbitt.

Thus, the prosecutor is going after all the funds taken by the couple, but does not appear to be seeking any of the funds actually received by Bobbitt. This indicates to me that the prosecutor does not see the funds received by Bobbitt as ill-gotten goods.


I dunno. It sounds to me like the couple had a plan to scam money but they needed a willing co-conspirator in the form of some homeless guy they could build a feel-good story around, and so they approached Johnny Bobbitt. Looks like a cynical ploy to take advantage of the better nature most people actually possess, and it's really easy to give money through GoFundMe. And look what happened. They succeeded beyond their wildest dreams. They succeeded too much, in fact, and the greed of at least two of the three got the better of them, and then the predictable falling out occurred...


I agree but, in my view, Bobbitt was used as mislead almost as much as the donors. Consider his position - homeless, broke, hungry. Sounds like the couple preyed on his situation to make him a pawn, not a co-conspirator. I'm fairly certain I could convince a jury of the same thing.

No problem with that analysis. Certainly, those are mitigating factors, at minimum. I have a few attorney friends that could even turn them into extenuating or exigent circumstances, even. I'm not seeing where any jury would agree to convict Bobbitt, and maybe the prosecutor is seeing the same thing.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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