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80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall
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It was a spectacular day up in Utah last Saturday. Pretty small field - 32 going solo, and maybe that many relay and team members in addition? I'm not sure of that number. I was one of the two women out 32 solo racers that signed up. My coach Sarah Jarvis was the second. I was part of the 80% that quit; Sarah won the entire thing.

It was a fantastic race. Setting aside the issues about the IC - yes, he's pretty self-promoting! but he is also a really nice guy and is a legitimate and attentive race director: he put on a well-organized race on a well-thought out course. It was completely self-supported but they had everything laid out well and there were no surprises or snafus. James' crew was helpful, friendly, enthusiastic - they were out on the bike course everywhere and providing water when they could, taking pictures and video, giving encouragement, etc.

The course itself was gorgeous (although I can only speak to the first 2.25 miles of the 10-mile run loop because that's where I quit, after I got myself off-course and added a 1.5 mile detour). The swim was a perky 4 loops in Lake Jordanelle, which was super nice. With so few racers, I felt like I had the entire lake to myself. The bike was the hardest thing I've ever done - ~8K of climbing in 105 miles, with the climb up Guardsman Pass at the very end. Brutal. The "run" up and down two peaks at Brighton Ski Resort was clearly designed to break everyone, and I think it mainly accomplished that. Still, the bike was highly doable and excellent - and having your support crew drive along and help you out? that's an amazing way to do the bike! Everyone should go ride up Guardsman Pass once before they die. It's that good.

My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.

Anyhoo - just some thoughts to share, and I'll end by saying: if you're looking for something different, an interesting challenge - you should attempt this race!!
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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I've never heard of these (Utah or Vermont) and they look awesome. I did Canadaman this year, which was probably 120 miles NE of the Vermont location.

How did you do with the elevation? The Utah race starts (or goes up to ??) 8000'?
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, the website is not clear on altitude -- it actually starts at around 6100 ft but never goes lower, and I think the highest point on the run is around 10,000? Not sure exactly. I did 'ok' with the altitude because I live at 7000 ft.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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Hatsack wrote:
My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.

Great write up about what sounds like a super tough race.
The comment above I find interesting on a few levels-people can read/assume so much into what a person has written. My guess is that it completely was not in James consciousness at the time of writing the post to mention an overall winner or even realise that by not mentioning Sarah won overall he might offend some people. Yet now he is being criticised and questioned publicly like this for sexism basically? I just feel that it is a bit on the harsh side to question that and put that down in this forum without something to back it up.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [pbnz] [ In reply to ]
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Why? She won the race, so say she's the overall winner. Not rocket science.

Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [pbnz] [ In reply to ]
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pbnz wrote:
Hatsack wrote:
My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.


Great write up about what sounds like a super tough race.
The comment above I find interesting on a few levels-people can read/assume so much into what a person has written. My guess is that it completely was not in James consciousness at the time of writing the post to mention an overall winner or even realise that by not mentioning Sarah won overall he might offend some people. Yet now he is being criticised and questioned publicly like this for sexism basically? I just feel that it is a bit on the harsh side to question that and put that down in this forum without something to back it up.

Oh come on, "not in James's consciousness", what a load of horse sheet. Any guy knows that a woman winning OA in a race is something unusual that should be specially noted. Jan Ripple, a top female pro during the mid-80s to mid-90s, won a regional race with 300-400 competitors in the deep South one summer back in the late 80s or early 90s, and you can be damn sure that the headlines noted that it was a woman who won OA.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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Hatsack wrote:
It was a spectacular day up in Utah last Saturday. Pretty small field - 32 going solo, and maybe that many relay and team members in addition? I'm not sure of that number. I was one of the two women out 32 solo racers that signed up. My coach Sarah Jarvis was the second. I was part of the 80% that quit; Sarah won the entire thing.

It was a fantastic race. Setting aside the issues about the IC - yes, he's pretty self-promoting! but he is also a really nice guy and is a legitimate and attentive race director: he put on a well-organized race on a well-thought out course. It was completely self-supported but they had everything laid out well and there were no surprises or snafus. James' crew was helpful, friendly, enthusiastic - they were out on the bike course everywhere and providing water when they could, taking pictures and video, giving encouragement, etc.

The course itself was gorgeous (although I can only speak to the first 2.25 miles of the 10-mile run loop because that's where I quit, after I got myself off-course and added a 1.5 mile detour). The swim was a perky 4 loops in Lake Jordanelle, which was super nice. With so few racers, I felt like I had the entire lake to myself. The bike was the hardest thing I've ever done - ~8K of climbing in 105 miles, with the climb up Guardsman Pass at the very end. Brutal. The "run" up and down two peaks at Brighton Ski Resort was clearly designed to break everyone, and I think it mainly accomplished that. Still, the bike was highly doable and excellent - and having your support crew drive along and help you out? that's an amazing way to do the bike! Everyone should go ride up Guardsman Pass once before they die. It's that good.

My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.

Anyhoo - just some thoughts to share, and I'll end by saying: if you're looking for something different, an interesting challenge - you should attempt this race!!

From what i can tell you're the only one calling her a girl in a derogatory way here.

Looks like she had a great race on a tough course, kudos to her.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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Good grief was there something in the air this weekend? Then we had this crap pulled after HTC:

https://www.google.com/...o-coast-relay-snafu/

Kudos to you and your friend and then these ladies for kicking some ass. Directors need to step up. This should not be happening in this day. I had a similar experience with a running race with a major US organization. They recognized the longest distance but couldn't be bothered with the next distance down age group winners. I had a few words with them at an expo the following year telling them what sort of precedent they were setting. This was no small event, we are talking thousands of runners. The message they sent was pretty clear and disappointing to up and coming runners.

Really no excuse for any of this.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [madonebug] [ In reply to ]
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From my short interaction with James on Saturday, there's no way in hell he would ever tell a racer "Go tell someone who cares" -- James is clearly committed to making his race work, and he was especially kind to me! -- so we can't lump these together. To be clear, James did not diminish or not recognize Sarah. He recognized her as the female winner, which is true. I'm just with EricMulk above who thinks that when a woman wins overall, it's notable. Make a big deal of it! It would make for fantastic optics for his race!! I'm simply saying: some people may not think a race is 'tough' if a woman wins. That's the truth, and for the two posters above who tried to deflect from that point - they're probably some of the worst believers in that myth, and probably the type of guys who would rather die than get 'chicked'. I do not believe James is that kind of person, but his Instagram post was not inspiring. As far as this idea that I'm publicly criticizing a race director? Let's just assume most of them are adults and can handle some criticism. You'll note I did NOT make myself anonymous.

p.s. Since I DNF'd I had to come up with another event to take advantage of all this fitness I gained and didn't use on Saturday. So I signed up for my first 55K in 3 weeks! I'm psyched.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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Hatsack, I think what I find most ironic and it just reminds me of how complex various peoples world views are is the underlying assumptions that go into some of the comments you have made. Maybe I think too much of people and am not used to living/working daily in an overtly sexist environment (my job is dominated by women and involves just looking after women, so you may not realise it but I sit on the other side of the fence to where you probably think I am). It bothers me when comments such as the race director purposely not promoting her as the overall winner because it is not the image of the race he wants to promote, followed by some of the posters being the worst believers in the "myth" and would rather die than get chicked in a race....it just shows a completely different view of the world compared to what I live in. Comments like this assume so much about the motivations behind peoples actions when I often think the reality is a lot different. I don't know James and maybe there is history on that front, but it is a big call to criticise someones motivations like that. Appropriate to highlight that it should have been something that was promoted, but then to question why he did not with something like overt sexism crosses a line in my mind.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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A saying springs to mind here:
"Never attribute malice when incompetence will suffice."

The more likely explanation is that he just fired off the tweet without any thought that he wasn't making the big deal of Sarah's win that he should have (or indeed would have if he'd put any thought in to it). I'd be *very* surprised if it was an intentional move to maintain the race's reputation as being sufficiently tough - the course profile and DNF rate will do that just fine by themselves.
Last edited by: Liaman: Aug 28, 18 2:35
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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I am really just focusing on the inequality in the way they announce, or do not announce whether or not anything was said on the side. It does not go unnoted that many articles in the media start with men's coverage first. Same with awards ceremonies etc. I guess at least following some endurance racing Facebook threads, it seems they try better to even that out. I love seeing they post the female winner photo and success right out there. Why not this, why not HTC? And a female who takes overall, should get the credit. I think it is awesome and noteworthy.

Good luck on your 55k!
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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Hatsack wrote:
Since I DNF'd I had to come up with another event to take advantage of all this fitness I gained and didn't use on Saturday. So I signed up for my first 55K in 3 weeks! I'm psyched.

I couldn't look at a bike for 6 weeks after my race. Go knock the 55k out of the park and come back with a race report on how you beat all the men (hehe).
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Hatsack] [ In reply to ]
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To me it is really neither here nor there. Who wins has everything to do with who shows up that day. If a woman had a faster time than the men at a World Championship or something I would be intrigued, but at super small races it happens. Especially super small, specialty type races. Last year at an ultra I did a woman smoked the whole field (both genders) and set a WR. That was huge news. Not much was made of the fact that she was first overall. Her time is what mattered.

Assuming there was some ill intent on James part seems like you are being way too sensitive. I'm not blind to the fact that sexism exists, and in some places is even prevalent. I just don't think this is one of those cases.

Brian

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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [cbritri] [ In reply to ]
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Who wins has everything to do with who shows up that day//

Exactly, and if the math is correct, then it looks like the loan woman beat 6 or 7 men?? Seem more like your weekly training race when you have less than 10 finishers. Maybe in the Iditarod 10 finishers is a high %, but this seems to be like a Seinfeld episode, a lot about nothing...Congratulations to all the winners, I imagine everyone who finished won something..


I think this just needs to go down as a very proud accomplishment, the racing stuff seems a bit of a stretch at this point..
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
pbnz wrote:
Hatsack wrote:
My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.


Great write up about what sounds like a super tough race.
The comment above I find interesting on a few levels-people can read/assume so much into what a person has written. My guess is that it completely was not in James consciousness at the time of writing the post to mention an overall winner or even realise that by not mentioning Sarah won overall he might offend some people. Yet now he is being criticised and questioned publicly like this for sexism basically? I just feel that it is a bit on the harsh side to question that and put that down in this forum without something to back it up.


Oh come on, "not in James's consciousness", what a load of horse sheet. Any guy knows that a woman winning OA in a race is something unusual that should be specially noted. Jan Ripple, a top female pro during the mid-80s to mid-90s, won a regional race with 300-400 competitors in the deep South one summer back in the late 80s or early 90s, and you can be damn sure that the headlines noted that it was a woman who won OA.

Crawfishman?
Lordy could that lady swim. Haven't heard her name called at a race in a good ten years.

trav

____________________________________________________
"As for "xxxxxx"...what can I say? You sound like a dick. If you don't want to answer the question, just shut up." AllezPappa
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [madonebug] [ In reply to ]
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madonebug wrote:
Good grief was there something in the air this weekend? Then we had this crap pulled after HTC:

https://www.google.com/...o-coast-relay-snafu/

Kudos to you and your friend and then these ladies for kicking some ass. Directors need to step up. This should not be happening in this day. I had a similar experience with a running race with a major US organization. They recognized the longest distance but couldn't be bothered with the next distance down age group winners. I had a few words with them at an expo the following year telling them what sort of precedent they were setting. This was no small event, we are talking thousands of runners. The message they sent was pretty clear and disappointing to up and coming runners.

Really no excuse for any of this.

Yes, that's inexcusable and I'm shocked it's occurring today. I've never been to an event where the announced awards weren't identical across men, women, and mixed if teams are included. Wow.

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [Toby] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad I read the comments before becoming all indignant about the top womens teams not getting awards. Seems they do get awards at the official awards ceremony, just not at the during race announcements that are held very quickly once the top few teams come in...But as is par for the course, sensational headlines that get us to click are the norm now, never mind the real details of the story..




'"I've run Hood to Coast about 7 times, but not since 2014. I can see both sides here. The "ceremony" in question here isn't a ceremony at all. The ACTUAL awards ceremony is on Sunday. Where the top-6 teams in every division, every age group, every gender is recognized. What these women are talking about is little more than a brief announcement (~"These are the 3 teams that are the overall winners of the run, the walk, and the high school event. Come back tomorrow when we can recognize *ALL* of the teams who deserve recognition"). I'm not defending Bob Foote, but I can see how this might have gone down something like this "Hey Bob, we won't be here tomorrow like everyone else for the real awards ceremony, can you recognize us right now, today, so that we can get our recognition?" - And while they may not have meant it in such a way, Bob could have interpreted that as 'we won't bother being here tomorrow for the awards, and want you to make a special exception for us'. They were NOT dissed or disrespected at the actual awards ceremony, even though the article kind of makes it sound like they were."
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [travisml] [ In reply to ]
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travisml wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
pbnz wrote:
Hatsack wrote:
My only disappointment: on social media today (or last night?), James announced the male and female winners. He did not specifically mention that Sarah took the overall win. I suspect a woman winning isn't consistent with the image of the race he wants to promote -- how can it be Utah's Toughest if a *girl* wins? But Sarah Jarvis ain't your average girl - she's a beast in the same genre as Hillary Biscay. It's no surprise to any of us who know her that she won.


Great write up about what sounds like a super tough race.
The comment above I find interesting on a few levels-people can read/assume so much into what a person has written. My guess is that it completely was not in James consciousness at the time of writing the post to mention an overall winner or even realise that by not mentioning Sarah won overall he might offend some people. Yet now he is being criticised and questioned publicly like this for sexism basically? I just feel that it is a bit on the harsh side to question that and put that down in this forum without something to back it up.


Oh come on, "not in James's consciousness", what a load of horse sheet. Any guy knows that a woman winning OA in a race is something unusual that should be specially noted. Jan Ripple, a top female pro during the mid-80s to mid-90s, won a regional race with 300-400 competitors in the deep South one summer back in the late 80s or early 90s, and you can be damn sure that the headlines noted that it was a woman who won OA.


Crawfishman?
Lordy could that lady swim. Haven't heard her name called at a race in a good ten years.
trav

Ya, Jan Ripple was a great swimmer!!! Assuming you're referring to the Crawfishman race that was a 1 mi sw/40 mi bk/13 mi run and was an Ironman qualifier for several years in the late 80s/early 90s, no, it was not that race. The race she won out-right was something more along the lines of the Heat Wave Classic, but it wasn't the Heat Wave. I was not at the race but rather just read about it in Inside Triathlon. In any case, it was a stunner to read of her beating all the top AG men in the area. :)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: 80% DNF rate at Utah's Toughest - Female pro wins overall [monty] [ In reply to ]
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I have not done HTC, the lack of sleep is never appealed. I read their story and no I had no idea how it all really pans out as far as Saturday and Sunday. My bad there.
However then I say why bother with the announcements at all on Saturday if the overall women's team will not be mentioned? Most likely it will always be a men's team coming in first. I'd say mention both, but as: overall women's, overall men's, walkers and high schoolers or nothing at all and wait until Sunday. They are already splitting Saturday's announcements into categories so it seems disrespectful to not mention women's overall. It is a separate overall category as the high schoolers, walkers. The top overall, will 99.99% of the time be men's overall winners.

Cannot speak to the rest of what occurred, but seems like this would be the most respectful thing to do. Now I really need to dispose of the term overall, for at least the next week or so.
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