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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
Thinking about renting race wheels for an upcoming sprint.

Course is flat. 10 miles. Close to the beach so sometimes is windy.

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.

Current wheel depth is 38mm front 50mm back.

Looking at Zipp 404/Disc or 808/Disc configurations.

What would you do?

I think the 404/disc is the best option, esp if there are cross winds. Also, do you have an aero helmet? Might actually be the biggest performance gain on the bike.
If you aren't in to measuring power, perhaps measure cadence. Try to ride between 90 and 100 RPM; do a few training rides like this in advance.

And as others have also said, improve the swim time!
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Re: Race Wheels [twain] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, I came in late, so some of this may have been covered

- over a 10 mile race you are highly unlikely to see any tangible difference in speed/time over the wheels you currently have. There is a good possibility you could be slower due to handling, as was previously mentioned

Here are some things to consider that may not have been mentioned (all of these assume your position is optimum)

- Drive train friction- this can be a very big factor, especially for a smaller, less total wattage rider. The difference between a dirty chain and a clean chain with a good Lube can be 15 watts or more. That can easily be 10% or more of available power. Main sure your drive chain is super clean, than pick up one of the many 5 watt or less lubricants as noted by Friction Facts, or more recently ceramic speed. This will save you money, increase your drive train component life AND make you faster :-) My Lube of choice is Lilly Lube for its ultra low friction properties, ease of application and low cost. The overwhelming choice of ST nerds is wax.
- tires and tubes- your choice here, for a wheel set, and gain you or lose you another 15 watts +/-. Without any doubt the best tube choice is latex, they are actually easy to install if you know how to do it correctly- pm if you want details, and a nightmare to install if you don’t know what you are doing. For tires go to http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com and pick the flavor you like!

Those are by far the 2 biggest performance considerations. In regard to wheels, with little or no wind, or dead head or tail wind, wheels make very little difference. The more wind and bigger the wind angle the more you benefit from race wheels, assuming you know how to handle the bike with them on.

One last big issue with renting wheels is your brake pads. You will likely be getting carbon rims, and if you do not have the correct brake pads, which you probably don’t, it can be dangerous. I saw a guy crash out from top 10 late in an Ironman because his rims overheated due to wrong brake pads on rented wheels. Don’t do that!

Clean your chain, get good race tires and latex tubes, and have fun!
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Re: Race Wheels [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
Sorry, I came in late, so some of this may have been covered

- over a 10 mile race you are highly unlikely to see any tangible difference in speed/time over the wheels you currently have. There is a good possibility you could be slower due to handling, as was previously mentioned

Here are some things to consider that may not have been mentioned (all of these assume your position is optimum)

- Drive train friction- this can be a very big factor, especially for a smaller, less total wattage rider. The difference between a dirty chain and a clean chain with a good Lube can be 15 watts or more. That can easily be 10% or more of available power. Main sure your drive chain is super clean, than pick up one of the many 5 watt or less lubricants as noted by Friction Facts, or more recently ceramic speed. This will save you money, increase your drive train component life AND make you faster :-) My Lube of choice is Lilly Lube for its ultra low friction properties, ease of application and low cost. The overwhelming choice of ST nerds is wax.
- tires and tubes- your choice here, for a wheel set, and gain you or lose you another 15 watts +/-. Without any doubt the best tube choice is latex, they are actually easy to install if you know how to do it correctly- pm if you want details, and a nightmare to install if you don’t know what you are doing. For tires go to http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com and pick the flavor you like!

Those are by far the 2 biggest performance considerations. In regard to wheels, with little or no wind, or dead head or tail wind, wheels make very little difference. The more wind and bigger the wind angle the more you benefit from race wheels, assuming you know how to handle the bike with them on.

One last big issue with renting wheels is your brake pads. You will likely be getting carbon rims, and if you do not have the correct brake pads, which you probably don’t, it can be dangerous. I saw a guy crash out from top 10 late in an Ironman because his rims overheated due to wrong brake pads on rented wheels. Don’t do that!

Clean your chain, get good race tires and latex tubes, and have fun!

Great points.
- Regarding chain lube, I use rock and roll gold, second best here:
https://www.scribd.com/...ube-Efficiency-Tests
- For tires, Specialized S-Works Turbos are amazing; great ride quality.
https://www.velonews.com/...s-cycling-tires-fast
Too bad they removed the image. But the S-works Turbos won, bottom line.
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Re: Race Wheels [IntenseOne] [ In reply to ]
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IntenseOne wrote:
Sorry, I came in late, so some of this may have been covered

- over a 10 mile race you are highly unlikely to see any tangible difference in speed/time over the wheels you currently have. There is a good possibility you could be slower due to handling, as was previously mentioned

Here are some things to consider that may not have been mentioned (all of these assume your position is optimum)

- Drive train friction- this can be a very big factor, especially for a smaller, less total wattage rider. The difference between a dirty chain and a clean chain with a good Lube can be 15 watts or more. That can easily be 10% or more of available power. Main sure your drive chain is super clean, than pick up one of the many 5 watt or less lubricants as noted by Friction Facts, or more recently ceramic speed. This will save you money, increase your drive train component life AND make you faster :-) My Lube of choice is Lilly Lube for its ultra low friction properties, ease of application and low cost. The overwhelming choice of ST nerds is wax.
- tires and tubes- your choice here, for a wheel set, and gain you or lose you another 15 watts +/-. Without any doubt the best tube choice is latex, they are actually easy to install if you know how to do it correctly- pm if you want details, and a nightmare to install if you don’t know what you are doing. For tires go to http://www.bicyclerollingresistance.com and pick the flavor you like!

Those are by far the 2 biggest performance considerations. In regard to wheels, with little or no wind, or dead head or tail wind, wheels make very little difference. The more wind and bigger the wind angle the more you benefit from race wheels, assuming you know how to handle the bike with them on.

One last big issue with renting wheels is your brake pads. You will likely be getting carbon rims, and if you do not have the correct brake pads, which you probably don’t, it can be dangerous. I saw a guy crash out from top 10 late in an Ironman because his rims overheated due to wrong brake pads on rented wheels. Don’t do that!

Clean your chain, get good race tires and latex tubes, and have fun!

Thanks for the very thoughtful response. 15 watts just on lube? Holy hell, I've got lots to learn.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Responding to many in this thread at one time...

First, thanks to all for the assistance. I have much to learn and think about. Here's what I decided:
  1. No race wheels this season. Based on multiple responses that said they were both potentially not very helpful and could even be harmful due to handling without practice, I'm going to wait until next season. I have just two races left, with the second being on a technical/hilly course.
  2. Offseason, I'm going to add some leg strength training since I don't even lift, brah.
  3. I'm going to clean my drive chain before this weekend's race.
  4. I'm going to learn more about the tubes and tires on my bike.

This is my 6th year doing this race. There is no variability in the course (only conditions like wind and heat). My times over the past five years have been 30:27, 30:11, 29:34, 28:31, 28:33. I don't have power data as I just started with power this year. In retrospect looking at my times, some of my equipment frustration might stem from a perceived plateau in improvement, not just at this race, but at others, too.

For fun, any guesses on time and power? I'm going AP=200. Time 28:15.

Finally, everyone is good with 100psi? 135lb rider. Clinchers. Residential road surfaces. Should be dry.
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Re: Race Wheels [earthling] [ In reply to ]
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earthling wrote:
LAI wrote:
earthling wrote:
RBR wrote:
Something is VERY wrong

To go from a road bike to a properly fitted tri bike and not a second faster makes no sense.


I agree. I have been following the thread to try and figure out what this guy's problem really is - but its not jumped out yet. Road to tri bike with the set up he describes he should be a lot faster.


It's not complicated it was pointed out above. OP is pacing to speed not power, RPE, or HR. No matter how good the fit, how fast the equipment, or how aero his gear if he sets his pace to speed he'll continue to be 0% faster.

Quote:
Err.. if you only go faster when your speed drops below 21mph it makes a lot of sense why upgrades aren't making you faster on the bike..


What the OP actually wrote was:

DJRed wrote:
I generally just go based on effort and then peek at my speed every now and then. If it's below 21mph, I push harder (21mph is my usual average speed +/-. I never look at power during the race.
Said another way, my thought is it's a sprint. Just go, and every now and then kick yourself in the ass when the speed drops.


I took that to mean the OP was working from RPE and pushing as hard as he could through the race, looking at the speed only served to spur him on if he thought it was too slow. That is different from pacing to speed - i.e. I pace my ride to 21 mph. In that case I would understand exactly what his problem was.

If he is pushing as hard as he can - then he should be faster on a TT bike pushing that hard than he is on a road bike pushing that hard. The fact he looks at his speed to ensure he thinks he is going fast enough should not make a big difference.

Maybe pacing using power would smooth out his effort and improve his time. I guess the OP should give it a go and let us know what happens.

Yep. That's what I meant to convey. I don't set out to ride a particular speed. I ride on RPE. If I look at speed and it's below 21mph, I kick myself in the ass. If it's 23-24mph, I don't slow down, I just keep going on RPE.
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Re: Race Wheels [IT] [ In reply to ]
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IT wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.


You don't have a big enough engine. You have spent time, money and thought and your marginal gains are small because you don't have a big engine. While that is of some benefit on the run, your size is of little to no benefit on the bike where big engines get carried by the bike.

It's really going to be hard for you to benefit from the technology if you don't have the power. Work on your power.

Getting some good or bad news right before a race would probably impact your race more than any single thing mentioned so far.

Thank you for your post because it's more real world than most of what I read in terms of "if you buy this then you'll get this".

You've got me pegged. If I had a dollar for every 200lb guy who blew past me on the bike and then I passed on the run...

Do I get more power by:
  1. Lifting
  2. Plyo's, lunges, squats
  3. Riding big power in short intervals
  4. Riding medium power for long intervals
  5. All of the above
  6. Anything else?

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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
IT wrote:
DJRed wrote:

I'm 135 pounds on a good day.


You don't have a big enough engine. You have spent time, money and thought and your marginal gains are small because you don't have a big engine. While that is of some benefit on the run, your size is of little to no benefit on the bike where big engines get carried by the bike.

It's really going to be hard for you to benefit from the technology if you don't have the power. Work on your power.

Getting some good or bad news right before a race would probably impact your race more than any single thing mentioned so far.

Thank you for your post because it's more real world than most of what I read in terms of "if you buy this then you'll get this".


You've got me pegged. If I had a dollar for every 200lb guy who blew past me on the bike and then I passed on the run...

Do I get more power by:
  1. Lifting
  2. Plyo's, lunges, squats
  3. Riding big power in short intervals
  4. Riding medium power for long intervals
  5. All of the above
  6. Anything else?

Before you hit the gym, I'd go for option 3. If (as I seem to understand) you now are familiar with using power, you can find plenty of interval training plans around. I don't use power so I wouldn't know what to advise specifically.

With the gym you should be careful; you want to add mass, but not just for the sake of it, so make sure you craft a very sound and focused training plan (otherwise you'll pay it in the run by becoming one of those 200lb guys you mentioned above)
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:

Finally, everyone is good with 100psi? 135lb rider. Clinchers. Residential road surfaces. Should be dry.

like almost everything, it depends on actual tire width mounted on your rims, not just the stated width. in a generic sense, 100psi is probably high, but not doing too much harm either, but it totally depends on your tires.

i run 80psi front, 85 psi rear. and i weight more than you, like 25% more than you.
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Re: Race Wheels [tfleeger] [ In reply to ]
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tfleeger wrote:
DJRed wrote:


Finally, everyone is good with 100psi? 135lb rider. Clinchers. Residential road surfaces. Should be dry.


like almost everything, it depends on actual tire width mounted on your rims, not just the stated width. in a generic sense, 100psi is probably high, but not doing too much harm either, but it totally depends on your tires.

i run 80psi front, 85 psi rear. and i weight more than you, like 25% more than you.

In general, assuming I don't know the perfect psi, is it better to undershoot or overshoot? Assuming dry, small-town-USA type roads, sounds like I could lower it a little.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I’m you’re weight and run them at 80/85. Never had any problems.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I'm 50% more man than you and run 23's at 90-95 psi without issue.

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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I am 180 lbs. and I ride 80 psi on 23mm front & 25mm rear tires on wide HED rims. My bike is faster than when I ran 100+ PSI. It took a big step of faith to drop to 80 PSI, but I freakin' love it now.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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General suggestion (based on 35+ years of racing): For a sprint, ride the bike portion like it is the only thing you are doing! Get your breathing under control after the swim, and then go all out. Don't save anything for the run (until the last 100-200 meters of the bike, when you back off a bit to let your legs get a teeny bit of rest). Your legs are going to feel horrible at the start of the run....just let then warm up for the first 1/4 mile of the run, get your breathing back under control (breathe from your belly) and then ramp your pace up to your run race pace. Do not be surprised if your legs feel a bit heavier than usual (due to the bike effort); you will still be fast if you are a runner.
I'm about your size (140 lbs) and I've done a LOT of races of all distances. If you want to ride like the 200 pound dudes, you have to go "all in" on the bike. In a sprint, you should be going so hard on the bike that you want to quit....the bike is just too short in a sprint to actually blow you up on the run (assuming you are a good runner). PS-do NOT try this on a 70.3 or longer race, where going to hard on the bike can negatively impact your run in a significant manner.
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Re: Race Wheels [laughingfarmer] [ In reply to ]
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laughingfarmer wrote:
General suggestion (based on 35+ years of racing): For a sprint, ride the bike portion like it is the only thing you are doing! Get your breathing under control after the swim, and then go all out. Don't save anything for the run (until the last 100-200 meters of the bike, when you back off a bit to let your legs get a teeny bit of rest). Your legs are going to feel horrible at the start of the run....just let then warm up for the first 1/4 mile of the run, get your breathing back under control (breathe from your belly) and then ramp your pace up to your run race pace. Do not be surprised if your legs feel a bit heavier than usual (due to the bike effort); you will still be fast if you are a runner.
I'm about your size (140 lbs) and I've done a LOT of races of all distances. If you want to ride like the 200 pound dudes, you have to go "all in" on the bike. In a sprint, you should be going so hard on the bike that you want to quit....the bike is just too short in a sprint to actually blow you up on the run (assuming you are a good runner). PS-do NOT try this on a 70.3 or longer race, where going to hard on the bike can negatively impact your run in a significant manner.

That sounds like nothing I've ever done before.

I usually start the run off around my open 5K pace and drop from there. I've never tried to crawl out of T2 and get my running legs back.

However, challenge accepted. To build more on your experience, suppose my open 5K is 6:20 pace, my "tri" 5K pace is around 6:40, and I can run somewhat comfortably at 7:00 pace, are you suggesting I run that warm-up coming out of T2 at 7ish? 7:30ish? Slower? Faster?
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I would say 100 is probably high unless the surface is glass smooth. For comparison I weight 200lbs, on 23c tires I run 95/100 on 25c I run 85/90.
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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The slow(er) start is probably going to happen naturally if you have biked had enough. Just shuffle your legs for the first 400-600 meters before you try to open up to a full stride. The point is to not "force" your stride at the beginning. It happens naturally because your legs a leaded up from the super-hard ride.
A lot of "run strength" triathletes subconsciously "save it" for the run. They want to have a great run split, so they hold back a bit on the bike. But with a sprint, you really don't have to. Just back off the bike the last 100-200 meters before you get to transition, and then ease into your full running stride over the first 400-600 meters at the start of the run, and you should be fine!
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Re: Race Wheels [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of quotes, My apologies;
tfleeger wrote:
DJRed wrote:

  1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
  2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
  3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.

Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.


dont waste your money on "race wheels", If those first 3 things didnt get you faster, something is wrong, and race wheels wont help it either. wheels are the last marginal gain piece of a puzzle. there is something wrong with your fit if you went from a roadie to a TT and gained no speed for the same power. got a picture?


DJRed wrote:
laughingfarmer wrote:
General suggestion (based on 35+ years of racing): For a sprint, ride the bike portion like it is the only thing you are doing! Get your breathing under control after the swim, and then go all out. Don't save anything for the run (until the last 100-200 meters of the bike, when you back off a bit to let your legs get a teeny bit of rest). Your legs are going to feel horrible at the start of the run....just let then warm up for the first 1/4 mile of the run, get your breathing back under control (breathe from your belly) and then ramp your pace up to your run race pace. Do not be surprised if your legs feel a bit heavier than usual (due to the bike effort); you will still be fast if you are a runner.
I'm about your size (140 lbs) and I've done a LOT of races of all distances. If you want to ride like the 200 pound dudes, you have to go "all in" on the bike. In a sprint, you should be going so hard on the bike that you want to quit....the bike is just too short in a sprint to actually blow you up on the run (assuming you are a good runner). PS-do NOT try this on a 70.3 or longer race, where going to hard on the bike can negatively impact your run in a significant manner.


That sounds like nothing I've ever done before.

I usually start the run off around my open 5K pace and drop from there. I've never tried to crawl out of T2 and get my running legs back.

However, challenge accepted. To build more on your experience, suppose my open 5K is 6:20 pace, my "tri" 5K pace is around 6:40, and I can run somewhat comfortably at 7:00 pace, are you suggesting I run that warm-up coming out of T2 at 7ish? 7:30ish? Slower? Faster?

This started with talking about race wheels, and now run strategy.

Okay to sum this up.
  • There is no other room for improvement
  • You usually finish in the top 10 with a 5k run of 20:40
  • You are going to rent a new wheel-set to go faster
Whatever money you are trying to spend on new wheels to save 20s on the bike you can shoot that my way. I will shave 3 minutes off your run.




laughingfarmer I Love this run strategy, however running negative splits is a lot harder said than done.

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Re: Race Wheels [D_PRC] [ In reply to ]
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D_PRC wrote:
Lots of quotes, My apologies;
tfleeger wrote:
DJRed wrote:

  1. Wait until you get a Tri Bike. You'll be flying. I bought a P2. No faster.
  2. Wait until you get a TT fit. You'll be awesome. I've had 3 in four years. No faster.
  3. Wait until you get an aero lid. You'll be amazing. Bought the LG P09. Nothing.

Now everyone is saying, "Dude, you need race wheels", so I thought I'd rent them and give it a try.

On the time savings, I usually finish top-10 and I can tell you everyone who beats me has a disc wheel.

Lastly, as I read the ST thread "Post your power, etc. from your last race", I am pushing the same power and riding 1-3 mph slower than those reporting races of similar distance and bodyweight.


dont waste your money on "race wheels", If those first 3 things didnt get you faster, something is wrong, and race wheels wont help it either. wheels are the last marginal gain piece of a puzzle. there is something wrong with your fit if you went from a roadie to a TT and gained no speed for the same power. got a picture?



DJRed wrote:
laughingfarmer wrote:
General suggestion (based on 35+ years of racing): For a sprint, ride the bike portion like it is the only thing you are doing! Get your breathing under control after the swim, and then go all out. Don't save anything for the run (until the last 100-200 meters of the bike, when you back off a bit to let your legs get a teeny bit of rest). Your legs are going to feel horrible at the start of the run....just let then warm up for the first 1/4 mile of the run, get your breathing back under control (breathe from your belly) and then ramp your pace up to your run race pace. Do not be surprised if your legs feel a bit heavier than usual (due to the bike effort); you will still be fast if you are a runner.
I'm about your size (140 lbs) and I've done a LOT of races of all distances. If you want to ride like the 200 pound dudes, you have to go "all in" on the bike. In a sprint, you should be going so hard on the bike that you want to quit....the bike is just too short in a sprint to actually blow you up on the run (assuming you are a good runner). PS-do NOT try this on a 70.3 or longer race, where going to hard on the bike can negatively impact your run in a significant manner.


That sounds like nothing I've ever done before.

I usually start the run off around my open 5K pace and drop from there. I've never tried to crawl out of T2 and get my running legs back.

However, challenge accepted. To build more on your experience, suppose my open 5K is 6:20 pace, my "tri" 5K pace is around 6:40, and I can run somewhat comfortably at 7:00 pace, are you suggesting I run that warm-up coming out of T2 at 7ish? 7:30ish? Slower? Faster?


This started with talking about race wheels, and now run strategy.

Okay to sum this up.
  • There is no other room for improvement
  • You usually finish in the top 10 with a 5k run of 20:40
  • You are going to rent a new wheel-set to go faster

Whatever money you are trying to spend on new wheels to save 20s on the bike you can shoot that my way. I will shave 3 minutes off your run.




laughingfarmer I Love this run strategy, however running negative splits is a lot harder said than done.

I will eat my running shoes if you shaved 3 minutes off my run. It took me about 5 years of structured, coached training to take my open 5K from 22:30 to 19:30. That training included a run-only10-mile race focus and an IM build.

I'd offer this: You coach me for the specified period. I will do every workout you suggest and log them (through Garmin/TP) so you know I did them. If I run even sub-18 open, I'll pay your fee plus the cost of the race wheels I was going to buy. If I don't, you buy me the race wheels.
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