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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
This debate has gone on for years which implies there is no acceptable, reasonable solution that will satisfy a significant bulk of consumers.

While I agree with you in general, I don't think this is a true statement. There's always going to be debate. And when solutions aren't even attempted I don't think you can say that it implies that the solution doesn't exist.

The risk to WTC, I think, isn't so much whining by a subset of consumers. Or even serious competitors leaving the brand. It's erosion of the entire Ironman brand due to the perception among the mainstream population that the brand is indelibly linked to doping. Sort of like CrossFit is to seemingly a large % of this forum.

Or WTC could just throw in the towel and call "hormone therapy" a "lifestyle choice for aging athletes" and promote it as part of the brand. I'd be OK as long as it was transparent - just change the rulebook and get on with life. Just test pros.
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, but I don't even accept your premise that the Ironman brand is somehow diluted when the doping problem is common to all of triathlon and all of sport. If you believe otherwise simply because WTC already tests more, then that is an argument for them to test less.
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [trail] [ In reply to ]
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WTC could sit on their hands and AG athletes aren't going to be linked to "doping" even if half of them are all on T, for the simple fact that the overwhelming majority don't know that's "doping" and secondly wouldn't care.

From what I've seen as the general idea of what "doping" is = epo/steroids


Taking T so you can live longer or even get stronger as you age, while is doping (and against the rules and can be busted for it) I don't think the general public considers it the same as Lance Armstrong doping to win the Tour. So when the general public is laisez faire about it, it's not going to be stigmatized as a "doping" issue.


For the same reason why no one gives a shit about WTC races and "drafting". Everyone complains about it, but still signs up, still drafts, and still signs up the next year. So they don't have a "drafting" issue to general public because it's not even a concern to them.

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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [FlashBazbo] [ In reply to ]
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FlashBazbo wrote:
RBR wrote:


You said cut out the synthetic testosterone and the over 40 field is decimated

A blood test for testosterone is only $50

Are you advocating testing ONLY for synthetic testosterone? I don't think anyone else is.

I’m not suggesting anything

Read my post in response to the post I quoted

He said testing cost $1000
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
B_Doughtie wrote:
well then what?

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You were the one saying WTC needs to go halfies on this with the customer. I rebutted that, and you never responded to how/why WTC is going to cover half the costs of it?

ETA: Or I guess your answer was to stop supporting WTC, which I then replied that's not what's happening currently, so I guess we're at a standstill and waiting for the masses to quit doing WTC races then.

fine. i'm out. sounds like you guys have a strategy. good luck.

Lol exactly

It like on shark tank when all the sharks say the idea sucks and the business owner keeps saying it a GREAT idea

And sure enough a year later the website has disappeared
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [HuffNPuff] [ In reply to ]
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HuffNPuff wrote:
Sorry, but I don't even accept your premise that the Ironman brand is somehow diluted when the doping problem is common to all of triathlon and all of sport. If you believe otherwise simply because WTC already tests more, then that is an argument for them to test less.


Oh yeah, of course it's all of triathlon and sport. I thought we were just focusing on WTC here. And since WTC has decided to roll its own with regard to anti-doping, I'm talking specifically about WTC. And at least in the U.S., triathlon and "Ironman" are somewhat synonymous to the mainstream American. So I am admittedly talking with a U.S. bias. The Ironman brand is king, and it's the crown jewel for WTC. If that erodes and becomes a doping joke in popular culture, they might be done.

If your point is that doping in general is going to forever remain a controversial topic without ever having a tidy, neat solution that pleases everyone, then we're in complete agreement.

We're just arguing over which imperfect solutions we prefer. As a cyclist, I'm pretty happy with how USAC handles amateur bike racing for not much cost, but, in my opinion, with decent effect. I just think that could be a decent model for WTC to follow. Cycling became a doping joke in popular culture and amateur racing is on life support. But there are some signs it's slowly on its way back, led by gravel, etc.

What I don't like are arguments based in fatalism, e.g. "There's nothing that can be done....."
Last edited by: trail: Aug 17, 18 14:30
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:

For the same reason why no one gives a shit about WTC races and "drafting". Everyone complains about it, but still signs up, still drafts, and still signs up the next year. So they don't have a "drafting" issue to general public because it's not even a concern to them.

Yeah, I agree in general. That's why I suggesting that WTC could just re-brand doping as "lifestyle choice" and formally adopt it as acceptable practice for non-pros. It just takes some careful PR work.
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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B_Doughtie wrote:
WTC could sit on their hands and AG athletes aren't going to be linked to "doping" even if half of them are all on T, for the simple fact that the overwhelming majority don't know that's "doping" and secondly wouldn't care.


From what I've seen as the general idea of what "doping" is = epo/steroids


Taking T so you can live longer or even get stronger as you age, while is doping (and against the rules and can be busted for it) I don't think the general public considers it the same as Lance Armstrong doping to win the Tour. So when the general public is laisez faire about it, it's not going to be stigmatized as a "doping" issue.


For the same reason why no one gives a shit about WTC races and "drafting". Everyone complains about it, but still signs up, still drafts, and still signs up the next year. So they don't have a "drafting" issue to general public because it's not even a concern to them.


I guess you have a VERY different view of "T" than I do.

Anyone who thinks that Lance Armstrong's fight with cancer had nothing to do with the chemicals he was putting into his body is likely very naive. The studies I have seen all dealt with medically prescribed uses of testosterone for legitimate low T therapy.

If anyone has a link to studies on the effects and risks of off-label (doping) usage at typical doping dosage levels I would be very curious to see them.

Rudimentary Google searching reveals:
  • Heart attack or stroke warning: This drug may increase your risk of heart attack or stroke.
  • Blood clots warning: Use of this drug may be related to an increased risk of pulmonary embolism (blood clots in your lungs) or deep vein thrombosis (blood clots in the deep veins of your legs).
  • Misuse warning: Testosterone can be misused. There’s an increased risk of misuse if you take this drug at higher doses than your doctor prescribes, or if you use it along with other anabolic steroids. Misusing testosterone can lead to serious health problems. These include heart attack, heart failure, depression, and psychosis. Your doctor can tell you more about the risks of testosterone misuse.

Also:
Have realistic expectations
Testosterone therapy is not a fountain of youth. There is no proof that it will restore you to the level of physical fitness or sexual function of your youth, make you live longer, prevent heart disease or prostate cancer, or improve your memory or mental sharpness. Do not seek therapy with these expectations in mind.

Of course none of the above is what they tell you at the anti-aging clinics. Not much money to be made by NOT taking drugs.
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [helo guy] [ In reply to ]
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Of course none of the above is what they tell you at the anti-aging clinics. Not much money to be made by NOT taking drugs.

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Which is sorta my point. There are doping drugs that people associate with "performance enhancing" and then there are the medical prescribed drugs that help lifestyle/sex/even performance boost (and just as illegal as the EPO is), but because they are "doctor prescribed" they dont think it's the same as some macho man shooting himself up with EPO (even if they provide same benefits). Thus why I dont think WTC will ever have a "doping" label that was suggested, because people don't really associate the drugs they are taking as "doping" (ETA: even if a lot of the AG'ers are on doctor prescribed juice).

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instagram-@alloutmultisport
Last edited by: B_Doughtie: Aug 17, 18 15:22
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [B_Doughtie] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Petition: AGroupers want Ironman Anti-Doping Testing [rolymax] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting those links. I had not seen those.

I totally agree with his viewpoint, unfortunately so many people these days want to do things the easy way and think they should just be able to "take a pill".
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