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Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life?
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I’m relatively new to Zwift. I did my first Slowtwitch group ride not long ago. Yes, I got dropped, but I’m an old pro at getting dropped on group rides. I am not an especially strong rider. But on this ride I got dropped fast, twice, by a group in which I should have been as strong as anyone. And these are not random Zwifters who are guessing about seeding. These are Slowtwitchers, people at the center of triathlon, who probably know their FTP and weight.

Background: On Zwift, you classify yourself on an honor system based upon your weight and FTP, i.e., your w/kg ratio. I signed up to ride with the “C” group that’s supposed to have riders under 3.0 w/kg. At 2.95 w/kg, I should be as strong as almost anyone in that group.

The ride description says it begins with a 5-minute warmup with everyone together. So I started at warmup pace, and everyone else in the under-3.0 group started their “warmup” over 3.0 w/kg, and then held that power. I realized within about 10 seconds that there weren’t any people behind me, so I jumped up to around FTP, but the “warmup” group was increasing the gap, to the point that I stopped to calibrate my trainer in case something was wrong. (The trainer was fine.)

Zwift will let you restart a group ride that’s in progress, so after calibrating I air-dropped back into the group. I did 5 minutes at FTP+10w, barely hanging on to the back of the group, before deciding that I would crack if I tried to do an hour at 10w over my FTP. I bailed out for a solo ride. Which was very nice, BTW.

Of course, I’m not accusing any specific person in the group of being an actual real-life cheat. I don’t know anything about any of the others in the group, and I’m not giving a ride date or “location,” so I'm not trying to out anyone. (If anyone “doth protest too much” in the comments, I’ll let you decide whether they’re guilty.)

But if Slowtwitchers are fudging the numbers on something as trivial as Zwift group rides, how many triathletes are doing the equivalent in real life? Is this problem limited to Zwifters? Slowtwitchers? Zwifting Slowtwitchers? Will easy online cheating bleed into real life?

Yes, maybe this should go in the “cry like a little biatch” thread.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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Everyone (except me) is fudging the numbers. Zwift cheating is gateway-cheat to race cheating. The research is indisputable.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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dewman wrote:
I’m relatively new to Zwift. I did my first Slowtwitch group ride not long ago. Yes, I got dropped, but I’m an old pro at getting dropped on group rides. I am not an especially strong rider. But on this ride I got dropped fast, twice, by a group in which I should have been as strong as anyone. And these are not random Zwifters who are guessing about seeding. These are Slowtwitchers, people at the center of triathlon, who probably know their FTP and weight.

Background: On Zwift, you classify yourself on an honor system based upon your weight and FTP, i.e., your w/kg ratio. I signed up to ride with the “C” group that’s supposed to have riders under 3.0 w/kg. At 2.95 w/kg, I should be as strong as almost anyone in that group.

The ride description says it begins with a 5-minute warmup with everyone together. So I started at warmup pace, and everyone else in the under-3.0 group started their “warmup” over 3.0 w/kg, and then held that power. I realized within about 10 seconds that there weren’t any people behind me, so I jumped up to around FTP, but the “warmup” group was increasing the gap, to the point that I stopped to calibrate my trainer in case something was wrong. (The trainer was fine.)

Zwift will let you restart a group ride that’s in progress, so after calibrating I air-dropped back into the group. I did 5 minutes at FTP+10w, barely hanging on to the back of the group, before deciding that I would crack if I tried to do an hour at 10w over my FTP. I bailed out for a solo ride. Which was very nice, BTW.

Of course, I’m not accusing any specific person in the group of being an actual real-life cheat. I don’t know anything about any of the others in the group, and I’m not giving a ride date or “location,” so I'm not trying to out anyone. (If anyone “doth protest too much” in the comments, I’ll let you decide whether they’re guilty.)

But if Slowtwitchers are fudging the numbers on something as trivial as Zwift group rides, how many triathletes are doing the equivalent in real life? Is this problem limited to Zwifters? Slowtwitchers? Zwifting Slowtwitchers? Will easy online cheating bleed into real life?

Yes, maybe this should go in the “cry like a little biatch” thread.

Do I think there are Zwifters that fudge their numbers...Yes. Of course there are.

But, in this case, if EVERYONE on the ride dropped you, do you think EVERYONE was fudging on that ride?

"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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There appears to be a fair bit of classification sandbaggery that goes on, on Zwift. Just try to enter some of the Zwift races.

One thing, though, is that the group draft effect is really substantial. If you are taking part in a group ride then you need to make really sure you stay in the peloton, or else you can expect to have to kick up the power by 20% or more to get back on. That is not a case of other riders having seeded themselves in a lower group.

As to what you do about it: That depends on whether you are vain enough to believe that where you finish in Zwift races matters, or that anyone other than yourself will care. I self-seed in B because my FTP is about 3.4 w/kg - enough over the B/C threshold that I should not start in C. But on any race I'll get hammered by pretty much all of the B field and end up forming a small group with a smattering of C riders (and sometimes D)... I don't really care, because it's still great (virtual) racing and it makes keeping my fitness up through the winter a lot more fun.

ETA:
As to how that translates to "real life" - you need to define what that is, to start with. There is a subset that considers Strava the real life yardstick, and a small proportion of those riders will cook their GPS files using digitalEPO or whatever it's called. There are people who use a variety of PEDs, whether in competition or not, in order to improve the appearance of their results. No idea how that all relates to which people intentionally under-classify in Zwift.

Less is more.
Last edited by: Big Endian: Aug 3, 18 15:21
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [stringcheese] [ In reply to ]
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stringcheese wrote:
But, in this case, if EVERYONE on the ride dropped you, do you think EVERYONE was fudging on that ride?

That was my thought at the time. It was only about 10-15 people total. It's possible that some were being honest but tried to keep with the group longer than I did before giving up, and maybe quit before I passed by. And one rider might have been an "official" tour guide who was assigned to ride with the group -- I've seen requests for Zwift group-leaders to volunteer on ST.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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I don't ride zwift, but if it were a flat course, then classifying yourself by w/kg doesn't mean it's going to be fair. If you weigh 65 kg, then the pure watts you're putting out is far less than someone who weighs 90 kg. Even with the draft benefit, you're going to have to work much harder on a flat virtual course to keep up.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [Jason N] [ In reply to ]
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Jason N wrote:
I don't ride zwift, but if it were a flat course, then classifying yourself by w/kg doesn't mean it's going to be fair. If you weigh 65 kg, then the pure watts you're putting out is far less than someone who weighs 90 kg. Even with the draft benefit, you're going to have to work much harder on a flat virtual course to keep up.

That's plausible on the flats, as I'm around 70kg. I was in the "Lawson Craddock" position in the pack, so I was taking advantage of the draft and still had to exceed FTP just to hold my place. I haven't Zwifted enough to know how much the draft helps, but I understand that drafting is part of the Zwift formula. Many others were still putting out at or above the group's ostensible 3.0 w/kg FTP limit, though -- you can see what the others in your group are outputting. I don't think I gained any ground on a big climb, where w/kg would come into play.


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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You might want to check if you were riding a TT bike that doesn't provide a draft in Zwift.
I got caught on a TT bike during a couple group rides and was off the back pretty quickly.

@Kid
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [atkid] [ In reply to ]
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atkid wrote:
You might want to check if you were riding a TT bike that doesn't provide a draft in Zwift.

Gaaa! I was on a TT bike. That doesn't explain sub-3.0w/kg riders holding 3+, but it might explain why the draft effect has seemed elusive. Thanks for the tip!


<The Dew Abides>
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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zwift races always go crazy from the get go. The training rides tend to be not much better, if the ride leader is good it will settle down.

Once you are dropped life is hard.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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dewman wrote:
atkid wrote:
You might want to check if you were riding a TT bike that doesn't provide a draft in Zwift.

Gaaa! I was on a TT bike. That doesn't explain sub-3.0w/kg riders holding 3+, but it might explain why the draft effect has seemed elusive. Thanks for the tip!

Because they weren’t for the whole ride, that’s the whole drafting thing.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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In my experience, the 1st 10-15 minutes of any ride is always above the advertised group pace. Also, the people breaking wind are always riding above the pace. When you hit any hill of substance, the wattage usually goes through the roof. If you stick with the peloton and never break wind, you usually end up at the high end of the advertised group pace all said and done.

Keep in mind your gear matters too in the game. If someone is riding the Tron bike and you're on the entry level zwift bike with stock wheels, you're already losing at least .4 or so watts (by my eyeball estimate anyways).

There are people who cheat but I don't think it's too prevalent in the C or D class. Don't be discouraged and stick with it - Zwift is tons of fun (both group rides and races). It's totally transformed training for me - I don't think I'll ever train again without it.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [Macaroni Kid] [ In reply to ]
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I was doing a workout on Zwift last night, where I have my virtual screen in front of my avatar. I was riding at about 300w, which about 3.6ish w/kg. Because my workout was alternating hard and medium intervals, I was passing and getting passed by another rider doing a workout, with his virtual screen in front of his avatar, where I could see his watt output as I passed/was passed. He was doing about 3.5 w/kg and his screen illustrated about 155w (!!!!). That must be some serious weight doping.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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Those classifications are for 95% your 20 min effort

Most rides start well over that threshold and settle down at or near the top end limit for category

Keep riding. Once you get the hang of the draft and the massive accelerations, it becomes much easier
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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This is Zwift, right? Reminds me a little of a team I was on several years back. 5 or 6 of us (20 or so) travelled to races. But, about 80% showed up for the Tuesday Night World Championships - otherwise known as a training crit. Several of us took flak for not doing the training crit more often.

Don't worry about Swift, it's just a bit better than bench racing.

And yes, this belongs in the "Cry Like a Little Biatch" thread. And don't forget the "WWWAAAAAHHHHH"! ;-))
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [TriFloyd] [ In reply to ]
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TriFloyd wrote:
I was doing a workout on Zwift last night, where I have my virtual screen in front of my avatar. I was riding at about 300w, which about 3.6ish w/kg. Because my workout was alternating hard and medium intervals, I was passing and getting passed by another rider doing a workout, with his virtual screen in front of his avatar, where I could see his watt output as I passed/was passed. He was doing about 3.5 w/kg and his screen illustrated about 155w (!!!!). That must be some serious weight doping.

I find it hilarious.

Oh, you're at 2.6 W/kg... and you're at 90W?!

Suuuuuuuuuure. You weight 75lbs.

J
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
dewman wrote:
atkid wrote:
You might want to check if you were riding a TT bike that doesn't provide a draft in Zwift.

Gaaa! I was on a TT bike. That doesn't explain sub-3.0w/kg riders holding 3+, but it might explain why the draft effect has seemed elusive. Thanks for the tip!

Because they weren’t for the whole ride, that’s the whole drafting thing.

People on zwift are idiots.

You can do group rides that are listed at 2w/kg and you get idiots blasting off at 4 thinking they’re winning the olympics. Egos are fragile in group rides, 3w/kg turns into 4 and everyone tries to keep up.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [FatandSlow] [ In reply to ]
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FatandSlow wrote:
And yes, this belongs in the "Cry Like a Little Biatch" thread. And don't forget the "WWWAAAAAHHHHH"! ;-))

+1
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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There are many cheaters in Zwift. When I do the races I use Zwiftpower.com to weed out the bad eggs. (You have to sign up and give permission to link your Zwift info.) However, strong good eggs can auto-trip the system if your 20 minute power is over 5w/kg or 5 minute power is over 6w/kg. I’ve tripped it a couple times while getting dropped by people that are either ‘weight doping’, using ‘Z Power’ (estimated power), or their power meter/trainer needs to be recalibrated.

Also I think the ‘warm-ups’ are some of the hardest parts. I’ve seen people sprint off the line at 7 or 8 w/kg and hold it for a few minutes. If you can make it through the first few KM, it usually settles down until the next climb.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [dewman] [ In reply to ]
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 On Zwift, I am generally racing some person I don't know. In fact, so far, I have always been racing some person I don't know. Whether that's someone who is at my level and honestly reporting their data or some person below my level who is lying about their data doesn't really matter much. I don't know them. I don't care about them. If they make me faster, what difference does it make?

The people on Zwift are like that little mechanical rabbit on the dog track that all the greyhounds chase. Even the greyhounds know it isn't real. They still run like hell.
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Re: Does Zwift prove that triathletes are cheating in real life? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]
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JoeO wrote:
Whether that's someone who is at my level and honestly reporting their data or some person below my level who is lying about their data doesn't really matter much. I don't know them. I don't care about them. If they make me faster, what difference does it make?

I agree with you when it's a race, but this was a group ride. Riding alone on Zwift, without a structured workout, is just boring. I'd usually rather watch a movie instead of my avatar. I was looking forward to riding with a group of similar strength to see if that made Zwift more interesting. I still don't know.

It was like Rouvy, where you can ride video of courses all over the world. It sounds great until you're 15 minutes into Alpe d'Huez, alone, watching the video frames click by at 5 mph. I'll take a Breaking Bad marathon over that any day.


<The Dew Abides>
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