So here is the thought behind that.

Let's say your right hand gets out in front of you as your left arm is hitting the halfway point of its pull. We can argue that the last half of your pull is the most powerful part of your stroke, giving you the most propulsion, therefore we don't want to waste any of that. If you were to windmill and not glide (starting your right arm stroke), you're opening up your body and creating massive amounts of drag, making yourself work harder as you're not moving through the water as efficiently. However, if you glide, this is known as "active streamline". You're getting the most out of that last half of the pull by having your right hand still out in front of you, streamlining through the water. Hopefully this makes a little sense.

I'm a huge proponent of 3/4 catch up for any distance over like 400m for those reasons mentioned above., but I know I've gotten into arguments with people about that before. It works great for me.

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I think it's often hard for newbie swimmers to understand just based on a description. I know for sure, I tend to be a windmill and am just flailing through the water which wastes a lot of energy. For sure, when I'm racing the more tired I get the shorter my stroke becomes and the worse my catch and pull is. I just end up spinning my arms through the water. For the last month or so I've been just working on my catch and making sure I finish my stroke. Not being crazy about it just making sure I don't get too short. And my last sprint tri swim I was significantly better (still slow but improvement). I really just focused in making sure I got a good catch and finished my stroke. I definitely didn't think about gliding. I just make sure to "grab the water" to make for a stronger pull. I still have a long long way to go.

What is your stroke cadence?

We can argue that the last half of your pull is the most powerful part of your stroke, giving you the most propulsion, //

I think you might get a lot of argument on that part of your statement. It is the catch where it all begins and you can move the most water, the back half is just a weak finish to what really propels you. That is why higher turnovers are used in OW and sprinting, get to the catch phase as quick as possible. Kind of like the push phase in cycling, the circle of the crank does not net equal propulsion.


As to the glide comments, it is all relative to what distance someone is swimming, and their overall stroke mechanics. We have examples of Sun Yang down to Janet Evans, both who were super successful in their respective events(distance free). I believe the thinking on this is evolving like so much in swimming techniques, and the glide phase is being shortened and the reach is spending more time in the air than the water, a departure from the past teachings..

Does it matter if my catch sucks?

Catch is huge, no doubt. I agree with you 100%. I think while catch moves more water, your body is also in a much more vulnerable position unless you are swimming full catch up. As I mentioned, I think active streamline is extremely necessary in distance swimming to get the most out of your stroke and it is why I am big on event 3/4 catch up to help eliminate some of that time where your front end is totally open. Maybe I shouldn't have phrased it as "powerful" but as efficiency in getting those most out of that part of the pull, since this conversation is about the glide.

But through the second half of your pull, especially swimming longer distance where you may glide more and have a lower cadence, working through the finish is so key for propulsion/rotation. I also think that the second half of stroke is underrated because the vast majority of people don't fully finish their stroke, pulling their hand out 80-90% through the stroke. I compare it a lot to weight room motions. Catch being a lot like a lat pull-down, but that second half combining lat pull-down into a tricep press through.

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Ever Grateful, Ever True.
Boiler Up.
Hammer Down.
Hail Purdue

A few moments might be a bit long.
But do remember, we are displacement hulls and the longer we are, the faster our hull speed.

Do yourself a favor (if you haven't already) and start listening to the tower 26 podcasts. Start at episode 1.

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Provided you have constant uninterrupted propulsion. I don't care how long you are, if you aren't actively pulling water with at least one arm then you are decelerating.

I read about some of the work that Gennadiy Turetski published, and I saw one of his videos explaining another technique. Basically, his idea is that there is a need to diminish the dead spots in the stroke and instead have less time when the body is decelerating. That deceleration comes unless there is a big kick, even in distance events.

I think many make a huge mistake by watching videos of Hackett, Perkins, Thorpe, Sun, etc, and see a long, galloping stroke wth lots of extension. The huge mistake is not realizing that the powerful kick, even in races like the mile, is overcoming that dead spot on each side that comes with an extra long glide. These guys also have tremendous lat and upper back strength.

Gregorio Paltrinieri is the reigning Olympic mile champ and second fastest ever, and he takes many more strokes per length than Sun. He has shortened his stroke to diminish the dead zone in his kick.

Few triathletes and masters swimmers are going to have the kind of kick training and upper back strength to swim this way. For that reason, I would advocate a shorter stroke, thigh not without some reach. I'd describe it as spinning in the small ring.

Turetski has a drill to emphasize keeping the stroke shorter to capitalize on keeping the dead zone short and the stroke efficient. Take a broom handle or a length of pvc pipe. Standing on deck, bend over at the waist slightly, and with both hands holding the stick at shoulder width, take strokes like kayaking strokes. The handle keeps the arms in sync and keeps the arms from reaching too long. I tried it for a few mins, then, got in the pool and I totally felt the greater efficiency with a slightly shorter stroke. Then again, I've also been swimming my whole life, and already have enough shoulder ROM that even a slightly shortened stroke still looks long.

The rear part of the stroke may not be the most powerful but it is in no doubt the fastest your body will ever be traveling.
A very flexible shouldered athlete can milk this speed for a long time before they slow down enough for another power pulse to begin.
A less flexible and poorer gliding athlete will lose this speed quicker and need to begin their stroke earlier.
This also demonstrates the importance of the speed of the swimmer, faster you go the shorter the glide as speed drops very quickly and power needs to be applied earlier.

Where you fit on the glide length scale is a reflection of your speed and your streamlining.
Obviously length of event has a say in speed, so your stroke will vary with distance being swum.

OMG, that picture is just awful

I do listen to tower 26. From my post I’m not advocating gliding I’m merely pointing out how challenging it is sitting through the plethora of swim information out there. On this forum and on this post there is never a consensus.

Gerry has hit that one a few times... good info and bad info... and good info specifically for triathletes vs. true swimmers.

He's not a fan of gliding and I'm taking his word for it. Point #9 here...

http://tower26.com/dont-do-these-in-triathlon-swimming/

Gary Hall used a device that constantly measured pace and the results showed that a swimmer is traveling slowest on the last half of their pull. He reasons it is because this is where your body position creates the most drag. That makes a lot of sense.


Do you do a 4 beat kick? And by 3/4 catch up do you mean you lope? More or less that is how I swim 200+. But I don't think "glide" plays any part of it. It is just how I coordinate my 4 beat kick...

This, exactly. Your peak speed should be at the moment at, or just before, the end of your pull. You decelerate from there. Start your next stroke too early, the added drag exceeds the additional propulsive force, and you go slower than had you glided for a moment more before stroking. Start your next stroke too late, and you've decelerated too much and you waste propulsive force re-accelerating. Everyone's "optimal" stroke timing is going to be different. And each individual is going to have different optimal timing, depending on the speed and environment. My 50 free stroke looks different than my 100 stroke which looks different than my 200 stroke which looks different than my 500-and-up stroke. My stroke in pool looks different than my stroke in wavy open water, and it looks different when swimming solo in open water than it does when swimming in a pack.

A really good swimmer intuitively understands how much glide is best for them given their objective and environment.

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I understand complete. Lots of conflicting advice

IMO he reason for no consensus here or else where is that there is more than one ‘correct’ way.

This is what I did to solve the issue for myself

I did a 100 with lots of glide
100 a litttle glide
100 no glide

I repeated this 4 time. I timed myself each time and the same rest between sets. I also rat d how hard I felt I push on each from 1 to 10

When I looked at the results it was clear which one was faster and less effort

Would you say that watching a good swimmer swimming freestyle, you would never notice any deceleration as their power is applied pretty evenly such there is no noticeable deceleration??? Breaststroke is of course a totally diff animal. :) Also, agree totally on the amount of "glide" varies greatly depending on speed, e.g. abso zero glide on sprints and just a small glide at warm-up/cool-down pace.

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Addressing these two points - In my follow up comment, I mentioned that I shouldn't have said it as most powerful, but as lyrrad mentions, you're accelerating though the stroke so that last portion you are travelling the fastest. And addressing too with Gary Hall, the last part is absolutely the part you're travelling the slowest if you are swimming more of a sprint stroke where you windmill it a bit more or opening your stroke up too early. As Gary P said, my 50 looks different than my 100 looks different than my 200 and different than my 500. My cadence especially is a lot lower the higher you go, which impacts what my arms are doing and what I'm getting from each arm. That's why I recommend 3/4 catch up. It keeps you from sacrificing body position.

I'm hope when we say glide we aren't referring to a full blown pause in the stroke. One of my arms is always moving in some way. I'm talking about though like, in your stroke, keeping one arm out in front at almost all times (hence 3/4 catch up, full catch up keeps rotation from being natural in my opinion), however, maintaining active streamline. The second you open up where you head is what is breaking water for you at the surface, you absolutely start to decelerate and lose efficiency.

So by 3/4 catch up, there is no lope to it - it is actually fairly smooth looking when done correctly. Basically as my left arm is recovering, once my fingers are a few inches from the surface, in line with my right forearm, I start my right arm catch. As I mentioned, this is to eliminate as much time where my head is breaking water for me instead of one of hands. Also, I swim 2-beat for triathlon. Marginal gains doing any more for me in terms of body position and speed, but it gives my legs some rest before biking and running. Making my arms do all the work for the swim.

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____________________________________________________
Ever Grateful, Ever True.
Boiler Up.
Hammer Down.
Hail Purdue