Your fit looks very good for a DIY job. You should try some 155s cranks.

Not knocking your thoughts, because I know you are a very fine fitter. What do you see in the video to give you this thought?

Hip angle looks good; knees aren’t coming up beyond the elbows.

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Alex Arman

Strava

Your position definitely doesn't look too far back or low. But if moving forward and up solves the problem, then why not? Give it a try.

IME, sliding forward is mostly caused by the proper engagement of your glutes and hamstrings at the bottom half of the power stroke, which results in a forward force vector... which must be countered by something. Saddle tilted up, friction on the saddle, bracing with your arms, etc. Moving your saddle *back* should reduce this. Or you can just engage your glutes less, which seems to be common for triathletes.

Since you aren't closed at the top of the stroke I don't know why your hip flexors would be complaining. Maybe really pay attention to smooth muscle engagement and see if there is a way to modify the stroke slightly to relieve the pain. Are you pulling up hard with your leg? If so, stop doing that. Just unweight the back leg a bit. Posture is also very important. If you are holding unnecessary tension it can effect a lot of other things. So focus on relaxing everything but the muscles that are making the pedals go around. And play around with the different ways you can engage the muscles to accomplish that.

Also, if you are doing 1hr efforts, lower in the front and more reach would probably help with aero.

Are you getting the hip flexor issues on the turbo?
If so it is your low inertia turbo that’s the problem, not your position.

Don’t go to 155 you don’t need them and it will probably make you less aero. Don’t believe the short cranks, lower torso, more aero stuff, it just simply isn’t true.
More compact is more aero in most, longer cranks can help with this.
But yours look fine.

Nothing in the video. If he looks like that and his hip flexors still hurt in longer efforts, crank length is still the 1st place I would look, even if all the angles appear open enough. Often the

Either that or perhaps he is abiding by some ancient pedaling technique wisdom such as "powering the upstroke", "making perfect circles" or some other hocus pocus.

Did you arrive at this rationale from working with a lot of riders? I'd love to hear the details, as it goes against the grain of just about every top level fitter I know of. Always trying to learn from the experts....

Edit - Looked through some of your posts. I see you are just getting into fitting. Of these couple hundred fits you have looked at, are you working with a fit bike? Are you taking riders through a process? Taking them to the limit of their existing crank before changing?

The primary purpose of going to a shorter crank is not to be more aero, that is simply a common secondary benefit. The reason is to pedal better. The OP is describing a pedaling issue which the #1 cause is cranks too long, regardless of how he looks, angular ranges etc. How he FEELS comes first.

Your ideas on tri bike saddles combined with your ideas on crank length do not indicate a high level of experience or understanding. Not sure how you might respond to this, but for those reading, I want them to understand that the things you say are largely unorthodox.

Does it?
But yes there seems to be fitters recommending it because with aero eyeballing say long and low is more aero.....but it’s not.
Have a chat to aero experts like Simon smart and you will find shorter can often be less aero.
And yes, approx 50 riders aero testing, 165-170 is good for most riders.
155 is like an aero kick in the balls.
Looks really aero, but isn’t!

Funny, I went from 172.5 and 13cm of drop to 155mm and 17cm of drop and set the VA state 40k record as a direct result. Verifed by extensive field testing back when we were still working off spreadsheets. I've seen field testing from at least 50 or so that suggest the same trend. "Lower isn't always faster" is simply a trite way of saying that it almost always is.

Wind can be funny for sure, but to suggest long and low isn't aerodynamically sound is not my experience nor that of many others. Going longer than the FIST 90 degree upper arm to torso angle, while also giving the rider a slightly hands up position, aids greatly in getting the head down, which is the single biggest contributor to drag. We go longer, get the hands up, maybe even elbows wider, to get the rider in a position to comfortably relax the head down. It is essentially the new orthodox for those fitting professionals and world class riders, and fitting amateurs into professional looking, world class positions.

Wow! Thank you for all the responses.


I hope this is not the answer since I just purchased a 165mm Stages PM but I was afraid that this might be recommended.



I have been using TrainerRoad for the past year or so and have been happy with the improvements. In the Base phase they stress "circle" pedaling by including one leg and quadrant drills. So this could very well be the cause of the issue. I wouldn't say I pull hard but I definitely do pull. So it would make sense that intervals, with short work/longer rest periods, would allow my flexors to recover and longer recovery rides would just not stress them as much. But the max effort steady state 40k efforts would bring this about. I feel like I do a pretty good job of staying relaxed above the waist.


I actually first noticed this issue in a race (Oly dist) and have since had it on race simulations, both outdoor and trainer. So I don't think my trainer is causing the issue in this case.


I had considered some sort of grip tape but always had the Tony Martin image in my head. After your response I found a few other, more gentle, options. So I may try those. As stated above I first noticed this issue in a Olympic distance tri and thought that my shoulders being absolutely toasted from the swim may have had something to do with it but then it happened on the trainer and other outdoor rides.

As promised, here are my bike setup measurements:

Saddle height: 71.9cm (Adamo Time Trial saddle measured according to ST recommendations)
Saddle Fore/Aft: 7cm (seems a little far back according to this)
Nose to pad rear: 54.0cm
Nose to shifter: 85.5cm
Pad elevation: 8.7cm
Pad X/Y: 45.7/61.6cm

Appears that I fall in the "orthodoxy" band. Based on that fact along with the general vibe I am gathering from the responses I feel pretty good about my DIY attempt.

First off, STOP with all the quadrant, single leg, pulling up stuff. Give it a few weeks. That might fix the whole thing. Make sure you are stable on the saddle. If the problem persists, crank length goes to the top of the list.

This is the first thing I plan to do before making any other changes. My race in 3 weeks should be a good test.

The way you think about sitting on the saddle may help you to relax. There is nothing wrong with riding on the end of the saddle. This is not a road, mtb or any other sort of bike position where you want you sit bones to be taking the weight. When you rotate your body forward, a couple of things happen. The first and most uncomfortable is that your private parts get smashed. I could not stand the aero position until I found the right saddle and picked a side, i.e. I support my weight on the pelvis to the left of my gear. It is bone and can hold your weight just fine, provided the nose of your saddle is narrow enough (I use an arione tri with a very narrow nose). Now, it takes a bit to get used to supporting your weight there. The alternative is the Cobb saddles with two prongs that others have copied that you sit on entirely different than a normal saddle. I could not make one work, so I can't comment there, but many others love them.

First off, nice job on the home fit.
You do look a little far forward on the saddle. On a flat course, no worries, just spin and spin. On a course with some rollers you may start to feel like you’re leaving power on the table.

As far as 155 cranks go….I wouldn’t if I were you. Your hips look open enough and you’re able to hold a fairly neutral spine.

I’m thinking off the bike work for this. Some finer details (in the short one angled video :-) look at your sacrum area and see how it is sort of angled up and then your spine curves to make the flat-ish shape. Something back there is tight. You can see this in your hips sort of bouncing – not bad but there. I agree, you slide forward to open the hips because of all this.

So what does all that mean? Work on loosening your hips. Start with a third world squat – I know that’s not the correct name for it but that’ll be your fastest google search term. Then ease into the new fit. Things will probably need adjusted as your body reacts to the stretching and opening.

I'm not a fitter by any means, but looking at stop frames from the vid it seems raising the seat could create other issues due to leg extension angle at the bottom of the stroke with your crank lenght. I'd say move the seat forward, drop the stem to you can push less watts for the same speed and work on flexibility.

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Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.

your measurements look familiar...what bike/frame size are you on if you don't mind asking?

I am using the Adamo ISM Time Trial (a split nose saddle) and it seems to agree with my body. Most comfortable I have used for TT position.



PennBen, my hips are extremely tight. I almost never stretch even though I know I should. Oddly enough, I have a two year old and always see her sitting in a "third world squat" and I have recently started to try to do it whenever she is doing it. Guess I need to be more diligent with it. Thanks for the tip!



From my experience, only moving the saddle forward, at least when it starts behind the BB, will actually decrease the distance to the BB. This is why I had the thought of moving the saddle forward AND higher in order to retain the current saddle to BB distance.



The bike is a 2009 Fuji SST 2.0 (53cm). It was initially purchased as a road bike but from what I understand it is essentially a carbon Fuji Aloha (a TT/Tri bike). So I got some aerobars and converted it.

Just wanted to send out a quick update...

Did some course recon for my upcoming race this past weekend. Rode the full bike course (40k) with a focus on NOT circle pedaling and hip pain was nonexistent! I'm not 100% sure this has solved the issue but I am now very optimistic. If the race is a repeat of this experience I will be sold. I have also been doing the "third world squat" for at least 10min per day. Not sure how much of an affect this made but the squat has become slightly easier.

As for the sliding on the saddle issue. I tried a single wrap of ESI silicone tape to each "fork" on the ISM saddle. I was definitely sliding less but I think I will try to add another wrap a little closer to the nose for the race. I found the idea in this forum, specifically this image...



I will update again after my race in two weeks.

There is a study somewhere that compares the pedal stroke of elite cyclists and average cyclists. The elite cyclists unweight the back leg *less* than average ones. The average cyclist didn't actually pull up, but they had less weight on the back leg. And the elite cyclists pushed down a *lot* harder because they were putting out more power.

Bottom line is that you are probably better off giving your hip flexors a rest. The down stroke is where the power is.

Regarding "relaxed above the wast", that's great. Also pay attention to having a relaxed core. Back and stomach.

ST members are the best!


Had my "A" race this past weekend. Thanks to the suggestions in this thread, I am happy to report that I had zero hip flexor pain/cramping! What a huge difference on the run. It was also my fastest bike split to date (246W avg/255W norm, 24.4mph avg). Circle pedaling can take a hike, stretching seems to be helping, and the silicone tape stopped the sliding on the saddle issue as well.

Case closed!