Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [RBR] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
RBR wrote:
So the title should be maybe your crank arm is too long and your seat too low

The title made sense to me. If your saddle is too high then putting on short cranks would "cure" that problem.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just bought a P3 SL, 55cm, frame+fork only. Need BB and cranks. I'm guessing the P3 SL is English threaded, 68mm, but haven't found anything authoritative that says that, yet.

Saddle height on current bike is 750mm. I'm 5' 11", with a 32inch inseam. My current bike cranks are the usual 175mm. Based on your table, I should be looking in the 150-155mm range for cranks.

I'm also considering a 1x setup. How does such a short crank affect selected chainrings? My current setup is a 53/39T.

What are my purchasing options for a complete crankset?
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You could look at the frame to determine if it has a threaded bottom bracket.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [jimatbeyond] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, it is clearly threaded. I'm assuming the threads are English.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hi Tom,

Yes on the older aluminum P3's they are indeed english.

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
If it is threaded, it is English.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FindinFreestyle wrote:
Bike fitter for about 12 years, about 3000 fits. I'm decent at it. I've always tried to learn from those better than me and over the years, there have been a few tricky questions that I was having a hard time answering until I started experimenting with shortening cranks.

1. Seat too high! - Two angles are the primary drivers of the short crank movement. Knee flexion at the top of the stroke and, probably to a lesser degree, thigh torso clearance at the same point. Raising the seat opens both of these angles, so pedaling can feel better. It is not until later that we come to find that seat height may be causing us other problems.

2. Inability to rotate at the hips, or staying rotated rearward on the saddle, aka - posterior pelvic tilt instead of anterior. Also aka - "riding it like a road bike". Posterior rotation relieves thigh - torso pinching, and I have seen this tendency minimized or in some cases instantly and completely disappear once crank length was addressed. It doesn't really address the knee flexion issue directly, but it can move the overly flexed knee to an earlier portion of the stroke, which can be of some benefit, so perhaps a tertiary benefit to excessive knee flexion? Knee flexion is an issue because the knee can't be extended with close to max power from an overly flexed position. So if we can reduce the flexion or move the overly flexed knee back and away from the powerful portion of the stroke, we have made it better. Unfortunately, anterior pelvic tilt is not the fastest way for most of us to ride.

3. Excessive forward movement on the saddle You know the rider who no matter how far forward the saddle is moved, continually gravitates to the very tip of it, in some cases approaching an actual 90° of seat tube angle. IF everything else stays fixed, sliding forward will open the hip angle, at least the FIST defined "major" hip angle as I have come to refer to it, but other angles can become cramped. But IF we come forward AND raise the saddle (which we should), then it is more obvious how both thigh torso and knee flexion can benefit.

Anyway, just some quick observations that have been solidifying in my brain lately. I'm sure I was unclear about something and will be called out for my ignorance. I am not trying to dictate to the forum, as much as throw out some ideas and get some feedback on your experience as a rider or a bike fitter.

Finally, this is a rough range of crank lengths that riders have been selecting as a loose function of seat height.

<60cm seat height :: Crank 145mm or less. Really as short as you can find, maybe go custom. I’ve fit down to 135mm with custom cut BMX cranks.
60-65cm :: Crank length 140-145mm
65-70cm :: 145-150mm
70-75cm :: 150-155mm
75-80cm :: 155-160mm
80-85cm :: 160-165mm
>85cm :: 165-170mm, maybe 172.5 Keep in mind that of the tallest, strongest professional athletes I have fit literally ZERO of them have preferred anything over 165mm. These are 6’3” and taller athletes pushing wattage over 375 watts at threshold and upper 200s to 300 for IM races.

Dave,

Really interested in this idea, quick question for my benefit please;

How should I measure my seat height exactly so I can use your guidance as to crank length?

Thanks
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [esox.flucius] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
https://www.slowtwitch.com/...pectations_3595.html

In the above link, you’ll find a diagram of the measurement conventions, inc seat height. Should get you very close.
And if you haven’t explored Slowman’s bike fit section of the site, it’s worthwhile to familiarize yourself with the philosophy and process. Good luck! -J

----------------------------------------------------------------
Life is tough. But it's tougher when you're stupid. -John Wayne
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [karlaj] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks very much, really appreciated
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Fishbum] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fishbum wrote:
As someone who rides at a very steep angle with a 155 crank I was actually contemplating this subject earlier today. I have some hip issues that only feel better when I'm able to keep that angle very open and riding very steep lets me do that however it also leads to me being on a very long bike IE I'm 5"11 and I ride a 58 da with a 120 stem. I would like to build a P4 next year in a 56 so could I just go to an even shorter crank and move the seat back to keep that same hip angle I know other things would change and it would take some time to get used to but I would love to hear your opinion.

Using your post to add to the thread I have tested on my tri bike from 170 to 150 in 5mm steps. I am 5' 11 1/2" with long legs for my height. With each step down it feels nicer to ride BUT I found that at 155 I am unable to produce the same power as I can at 160 and above. I did my last IM at 155 and am now back at 160 that I had run the last few years. Up to 160 my power seemed very normal but as I say below there seems to be a drop off point. Each person may be different and I gave it a fair bit of time but as soon as I went back to 160 and I feel an animal on the bike again.
Last edited by: Shambolic: Aug 29, 18 0:15
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Would be interested to hear your views on how shortening crank length impacts torque production and how this ties in with cadence, chainring size (and it's then impact on max gearing i.e. top speed) , preferred muscle contraction rates etc....

My experience fitting is all those points can't be discounted.

Regards

David

David T-D
http://www.tilburydavis.com
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tilburs wrote:
Would be interested to hear your views on how shortening crank length impacts torque production and how this ties in with cadence, chainring size (and it's then impact on max gearing i.e. top speed) , preferred muscle contraction rates etc....


I second David's question. I've seen comments that state switching towards a shorter crank negatively impacts torque production, ie would make it harder to climb up hills all else equal. I believe the comment is sensible if you look at it from the basic physics principle of leverage.

But most often a rebutting statement will come from a more recognized/knowledgeable contributor on here. So if someone can explain it like I am five, it would be greatly appreciated.
Last edited by: zinny: Aug 30, 18 12:21
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [zinny] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My personal opinion having played around with crank length on both my tri and road bikes being 5' 11 1/2' are as follows... I started racing tri's having come from a cycling background and started with 170 cranks six years ago averaging around 99rpm for an Ironman. I gradually stepped down in 5mm lengths and in the racing power zone I did not notice any power difference only more comfort and ability to refine my position. It also helped with cramping like/discomfort issues I used to get later on of the bike in Ironman. With each 5mm step down in crank length the sensation when riding felt a lot better until going below 160mm. At 155 I started to lose power and at 150 my bike generally felt harder to pedal especially hills. Until there I noticed no difference including hills and have settled on 160. If anything I found it easier to maintain power at the back end of an Ironman with my cadence dropping to now around 83rpm average. I have not really thought about gearing as provided you have a big enough and small enough gears that is all you need to know and that is generally dictated by hills or wind but I have sized up to a 54 on the front but that was more so for the winds at Kona. I spent 3 days with my coach riding HC climbs in the Pyrenees riding aero on a 41 x 28 gearing.

There are a lot of things at play and I found the sensation is I have less pedalling dead spots on the tri bike with shorter cranks and I am producing power for more degrees of the pedal stroke which in effect increased torque to the pedal is required but is balanced out by this fact ie peak force v average force of a pedal revolution. Also it isn't really talked about the negative power produced by the opposite leg getting to a power position and I think this is decreased helping overall power.

As for the road bike coming from a cycling background I bought into the Indurain long crank revolution and rode 175 for years. After reading about shorter cranks and starting the trial on my tri bike I went to 170 on my road bike. It just felt nicer to pedal and I really don't notice any power difference. The only place is maybe racing or in the bunch where you hit a shorter incline and you require those sudden high power bursts to go with the bunch or attack that you lack a little. I put 165 cranks on my cross bike and I hate them compared to 170. The pedal circle just feels too small for my liking. Road bike positions I don't think shorter cranks are as advantageous due to having a more open hip angle and utilising your pedal stroke.

These are just my personal opinions I have developed over time with my own trial and error for what works best for me.

I really like this article and through my trials agree with it...

http://www.cyclingutah.com/tech/crank-length-coming-full-circle/
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I just put 150s on my new tri bike. Road bike has 175s.

I feel the same about a power drop. Just got back from a 40 mile ride. I did the same ride last week on my road bike. This week avg power was 20 watts less for the same perceived exertion. Granted, I was 1/2mph faster for 20 watts less. Which would be fine, if I could still put out the same power.

Dunno if there is an adaptation phase and I should just be patient.... Also, considering going up to 160s. But, I suppose I should go get fit before deciding what to do.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
A few things to add. It physically felt nicer to ride for me with 155 than 160 and I could produce power in training over a shorter interval but hard power efforts on the trainer I found more difficult unless I went to a higher cadence. On the back end of the IM I found it hard to maintain power more so than I normally would. As mentioned earlier 160 seemed to be the cut off for me and required no real adaption period when I went to them. The 155 I had on my bike a fair while before my race but there seemed to be a drop off point. So you can get fitted to a shorter crank and it may well look good for your position but I don't think a fitter can truly tell you it will be the best length for you when you get towards the too short end.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks. Interesting. My local fitter is Trent Nix...so, not your run of the mill fitter. I let him know my experience today.

I'm setup for 2pm next Saturday.

Today's ride included 8x30s @ 350 watts (1.5xFTP). Last week I managed 350-360. This week was more like 320-340. I really had to focus to get up to 340. Interestingly, I felt less fatigued afterwards than I did last week---maybe that's a reflection of the lower absolute workload.

My cadence was significantly elevated... I'd guess 10+rpm by my eyeball. Often over 100rpm.

I'll see how things go with my ftp intervals on Wednesday.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FindinFreestyle wrote:
SallyShortyPnts wrote:
KingMidas wrote:
I’m currently on 165mm.

Want to try 150-155mm but I don’t know where to find them. Any ideas?



https://cobbb2b.com/...ariant=6067235815467


Cobb actually skips 150. Thy have 155 and 145.

Rotor dips down to 150 in some models.

Also Power2Max has had some models that pair with as short as 155m cranks if you are looking for short crank based power. Not sure of their current offerings. Most riders riding less than 162.5 simply switch to pedal based power meters.

I just switched to 145 cranks. Had to wait till my race was done. I am a couple hairs under 5,8”. I raised my seat 2 cm going from 165 to 145. On first impression, I can feel the hip angle more open and more comfortable. The shoulders have to get used to this position because I could feel my shoulders taking more weight with my ass higher up. From a power standpoint, I have to ride a few more times to tell. I want to say it was harder to sustain power but I am outside in FL heat, it was a weird swirling wind day, and I am just picking up from recovery after an IM. It feels promising. Thanks.
Btw, I do have a 155 crank as well. If 145 feels off, I’ll try the 155 and sell the one I don’t use.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Keep in mind you can have too little knee flexion at the top of the stroke. In other words, you can go too short.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FindinFreestyle wrote:
Keep in mind you can have too little knee flexion at the top of the stroke. In other words, you can go too short.

That’s why I got the 155 as well. My seat height is 71cm. Is there a way to tell what the optimal is?
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Since this thread got bumped, it reminded me to follow up. I did go get a fit from Trent Nix. He raised my seat 4-5cm (amongst all the other adjustments), which got rid of that "clown-bike" / tiny-little-circles sensation. My sustainable power returned to normal, and subsequently hit my 2018 best powers from 5m to 60m in the following two weeks in the TT position. Also my cadence returned to a normal range.

I don't know if some other length might be better, but I have no evidence FOR ME to suggest that I lost something in the change from 175/road to 150/TT...once the fit was normalized.

I've been working on getting used to riding in the aero position for longer and longer durations (since I haven't really ever done that before). that mostly has consisted of getting used to the different saddle pressure points...and learning to relax my torso into the aero bars. I have my first race this weekend (Olympic), and did a 2/3rd race-distance sim (brick) on Wednesday. Same power as this race last year, 2mph faster, followed by a 4mile run 40s/mile faster than last year's race-pace.

As a side (OT) note: Boy what a difference a proper TT bike, with a proper TT position makes to bike handling. My road bike with TT bars was quite the handful last year compared to my P3-SL now.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Sep 28, 18 11:10
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [bluntandy] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
bluntandy wrote:
I've not fitted as many people as you but I'm planning on studying this area soon.
I feel there should be a way of determining a narrow range of crank lengths and Q factor based on some simple anatomical measurements.
I'll need some small people on the ergo. I also need an engineer to help with and adjustable bottom bracket.

Like a phoenix from the ashes, I have risen!

For a range of crank lengths, I recommend the following anchor points for minimum and maximum length:

Minimum length = X / Pi / 2 where X is equal to the distance from the ground up to the greater trochanter while standing upright and flat-footed. This is great for flat and rolling courses where speeds are high and torque demands are low. A potential option for triathletes that are always riding in the aero position.

Maximum length = Y / Pi / 2 where Y is equal to the distance from the ground up to the navel (or top of illiac crest or even the disc between l4-l5) while standing upright and flat-footed. This is great for most roadies. Exceptionally tall riders will potentially have issues with scraping their pedals going through turns.

At 5'10" I'm basically your average Joe and my range using the above formulas is 146mm - 171mm. I'm more of a roadie or was in a previous lifetime and prefer 170 on the road and 165 for tt's.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FindinFreestyle wrote:
Finally, this is a rough range of crank lengths that riders have been selecting as a loose function of seat height.

<60cm seat height :: Crank 145mm or less. Really as short as you can find, maybe go custom. I’ve fit down to 135mm with custom cut BMX cranks.
60-65cm :: Crank length 140-145mm
65-70cm :: 145-150mm
70-75cm :: 150-155mm
75-80cm :: 155-160mm
80-85cm :: 160-165mm
>85cm :: 165-170mm, maybe 172.5 Keep in mind that of the tallest, strongest professional athletes I have fit literally ZERO of them have preferred anything over 165mm. These are 6’3” and taller athletes pushing wattage over 375 watts at threshold and upper 200s to 300 for IM races.

Obviously it's a guideline, but for example, my saddle is currently 785 with 175 cranks. What crank length would you suggest? Would 155s be too short, maybe 160 a safer bet? Or doesn't it matter that much?
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Sojourner] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Like a phoenix from the ashes, I have risen! //

Hey welcome back my friend, it has been a long time. And a good time for someone like you who were ahead of your time in this game, the world is catching up to you and your ideas!!!
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Raising your seat 2cm did you raise your front end and seat forward as well to compensate? No wonder you are feeling more weight on the shoulders if not. That kind of crank length you would need a whole new bike fit.
Quote Reply
Re: "Maybe your seat is too high because your crank is too long" and other interesting bike fit puzzles. [Shambolic] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Shambolic wrote:
Raising your seat 2cm did you raise your front end and seat forward as well to compensate? No wonder you are feeling more weight on the shoulders if not. That kind of crank length you would need a whole new bike fit.

My seat is as forward as it can go. I’m one of those people that can’t get my seat forward far enough. If I could go forward more I would. The front end I raised 1 cm. I’m not gonna make any drastic changes until i ride it for a month and give the body some time to adapt.
Thinking about another fit. I’ll wait till January to decide.
Quote Reply

Prev Next