With the caveat that I committed exactly 2 minutes search time, how about these: https://www.thetileapp.com/en-us/

Build one into each timing chip and give a device to each volunteer to detect when they go by. An app would monitor the distance between tiles with the available data.

If you could get the tiles to detect themselves they could just start making a noise if you were within drafting distance of another participant. If you want to draft, you have to put up with the noise. You'd have to be able to have it activate only during the bike.

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-- Scott

A solution that almost could work would be drones with video cameras on them? And then you're also getting race footage the WTC could sell. The problem there is getting permission to fly over all that road. Isn't that usually a problem? I'm not that into drones, so I don't know about those rules so much.

But that would be relatively inexpensive and also provide video footage as proof. Say, four drones just randomly flying the bike route, just like motorcycle marshals. But they could also be pretty far away and zoom the camera in to keep quiet. Bust people from a distance, then physically zoom in more to get a positive ID on race numbers.

If Ironman can get a Houston toll road to shut down for a race, they can get permission to fly a drone.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

We could just get better courses that are one loop with some more technical pieces (that also don't make you crash).

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Washed up footy player turned Triathlete.

That figure of 20% seems extremely high. Do you mean to say approx 20% of competitors at a typical IM race are in with a realistic shot of KQ?
What's your mathematical estimate based on?

cobra_kai - there is ultrawideband (UWB) tech that gets within 5-10cm accuracy. I agree with you that GPS would not be sufficient and the tech is not that expensive

spudone - I thought of this initially as well but I think all that would do would be make people not cheat in those certain sections and then go right back to cheating. These cheaters ain't dumb - if they see these timing mats in the road they are going to drop back or make the pass on time.

Thom - in my opinion one should not have to travel to specific courses to ensure a fair race and I would disagree, I think drafting is a major problem. Yes, Texas was an anomaly with actual pelotons out on the course but in every IM branded race - 70.3 and Ironman I have seen this happening. Back in '08-'12 I did not see it as much but now it seems to be much more relevant.

Btw - I did exactly what you said this year and am doing IM Wisconsin which seems to be a more fair race due to the course.

Also - whoever said that this was a people problem and not a tech problem, that is true but the logic you provide does not make sense - tech solves tons of people problems.

For instance - Without traffic lights there would be tons of congestion if you left it up to the individual people to decide when to go and when to stop - traffic lights offer a solution to that problem. Using your logic we mind as well have no timing chips and just have people self report their times - doesn't make any sense to me.

This. In fact I'll say it again, THIS.

It's just a sport that people do for fun.

Ai - 1: I was using rough math - I was taking each age group that drafting would influence - starting with 25-29 up to 60-65; I would say that roughly 25 deep would be in contention for a slot - for one example - Ironman Santa Rosa - number 25 in the 30-34 AG went a 10:20. Obviously that is a pretty long way off of a Kona slot but I would still consider that pretty competitive. Drafting could save that person 20/30 min over the course of an Ironman. So if you take the 9 age groups in the range I mentioned above and go 25 deep that come out to 250 people. I would then say in the same respect that 10 deep are competitive in the women AGs - just due to less total participation - so that is an additional 90 - that comes out to 340 total participants with that "competitive" label - the typical race has roughly 2k participants so that math comes out to 17%. A lot of the European races have much deeper fields that that.

You mean like golf tournaments where professionals are playing for millions of dollars? Sounds like a fine idea? I'm not sure I want to be in a race where I feel like I need drones to spy on my competitors.

Drones will not likely work. FAA regulations prohibit flying over or near people. I know that rule is frequently violated (especially by hobbyists), but I would not expect IM to flout an FAA rule.

OK, so this would be a big technological nut to crack. Its not just time in the drafting zone, but you got blocking issues, etc. But let's say it is all solved and you have a rock solid system. I think that would be good, but I think the drafting penalty regime would have to be changed. Right now, the penalty is disproportionate to the gain. During the time that the official witnesses the drafting, the drafter only gains a few seconds. The higher penalty is obviously intended as a deterrent and/or to make up for unobserved drafting. But if all drafting is going to be punished (e.g., monitored for 100% of the bike leg), better proportionality should be applied. Also, officials now do not flag all the violations they see -- some violations are inadvertent or unavoidable. If the punishment is more proportionate, then all violations could be penalized -- even the inadvertent/unavoidable ones. After all, it would just put the athletes back in the position they would have been in had they not drafted (more or less).

So how would the penalty time be calculated. I'll leave that to the people that can do math. I would expect an algorithm could be developed that would take into account things like velocity, proximity to draftee, and time. Some data will not be available to do real justice here, like relative wind speed and direction. So, while I advocate better proportionality, I would set up the algorithm to err on the side of a longer penalty so there are not scenarios where one could be rewarded for drafting.

Anyway, its fun to think about an alternate (and maybe actual future) universe.

Ironman is a brand run by a business. A business is there to make money. If there was something that stopped them from making money, they would act on it, or sell the slice of the business that is not making money. It is really quite simple once it gets past the point of those who put on races out of a passion for racing.

Stephen J

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I believe my local reality has been violated.
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Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2

There’s a dirt cheap and nearly foolproof anti-drafting technology that is available today, and that works like a charm:

Really hilly bike courses.

Add in the fact that less people will register for a “hard”/“not a PB” course, and that addresses the other part of the drafting issue - overcrowded bike courses.

Problem solved.

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float , hammer , and jog

What is that tech called? Would love to take a look

So I'm watching the TDF and there's helicopters flying over the course all day. And then I remember all the times I've done an Ironman and there's a helicopter overhead at the swim start. And also a helicopter blew Jodie Swallow off of her bike in an Ironman because it was so close. If there can be a freakin' helicopter over people, there could be drones allowed. Maybe people are assuming there can't be when there definitely can.

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

^WHS
Problem solved

For a start they could ping the drafters and make them think about it next time they race and if it is worth it. My last Ironman I was behind watching the pack that came past me form up into the headwind at the back end of the bike with not draft zone flouting but blatant drafting. The bike came passed and watched them for a long time and they were all still technically drafting. Bike pulls off and comes back with them blatantly drafting again and then rides past. If drafters were busted for drafting more people may think otherwise. But yours is a good idea too...

Here is the regulation:

§107.39 Operation over human beings.
No person may operate a small unmanned aircraft over a human being unless that human being is:
(a) Directly participating in the operation of the small unmanned aircraft; or
(b) Located under a covered structure or inside a stationary vehicle that can provide reasonable protection from a falling small unmanned aircraft.

The issue is not with having aircraft, it's having unmanned aircraft.
Airspace control and unmanned vehicles has been an issue for years. I daresay almost a vast proportion of unmanned aircraft from toy drones upwards that you have seen were operating illegally. I used to design and fly radio controlled aircraft. I had a license and was insured, I flew at suitable locations well away from built up areas, airports, etc. Flying those well took skill and years of practice. Anyone can buy and fly a drone or one of the current autopilot assisted planes. As a result they are regularly flown by novices with little or no skill or knowledge. Most are probably unaware, as you are, of the restrictions that are actually in place. But they do exist and if an accident were to occur it could get nasty!

Additional great money-maker for Wanda: official IM tattoo artists. Think of the possibilities there!

People could sign up for a drone that gives them a tattoo while they are racing. Can't be any worse than this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vmZq27ex5E

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Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

In a dreamer's world I would expect on-board readouts of each racer’s times and splits given with comparison to key competitors and overall leaders through use of race chips and radio frequencies. Race chips will further evolve to provide full race tracking to ensure no one slipped off into the woods or a pub for a break, then mysteriously gain some superior results by accidently losing a timing chip. Chips will be incorporated in race specific wrist bands so no one lose a chip by accident strapped on their ankle. And drafting penalties will be applied to racers through chip assisted technology. Penalties would be calculated based on a ratio of drafting speed to average non-drafting speed. There would be an additional 10% time assessment too. Chips will track each competitor in relative position to other competitors in the no-draft zone area and time duration to determine penalties. Finally, there would be an on-board dashboard for each racer. If green shown, all good. However, there would be a yellow light warning when in the passing zone with a countdown to time limitation to complete a pass that would turn red showing drafting violation for not breaking off appropriately. Technology can be developed with time, money, smarts. The market, either the RD's or participants will dictate whether or when the technology is wanted, adopted, then mandated. Organized tri racing is beyond basketball pick-up games with its modified rules to meet the number of players, place, and adjusted needed for the competition, but not to the point of pro NBA instant reply call reviews. People who want an edge on the competition often slip in behind others when not being watched or enforced, regardless of rules and others' racing ethics.


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