Re: best way to improve swim catch [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 15:43

Post #26 of 48 (3007 views)

SnappingT wrote:

You can do all the drills in the world at a very slow pace and it's not going to help much. It's your strength and conditioning (fitness) in the water that is holding you back. The best advice I can give you is swim more, a lot more and harder with a group with a qualified (different from certified) coach on the deck.

Hope this helps.

Tim

Yeah, there is a lot of truth to that. I didn't mention on my post, but I did 400-600 yards worth of that sculling progression, but this was inside a 4000 yard workout, and I swam 4-5 times per week for about 6 months. I still swim 4 times every week now.

Last edited by: TulkasTri: Jul 16, 18 15:46

Re: best way to improve swim catch [TulkasTri] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 15:45

Post #27 of 48 (3006 views)

And Bingo was his name-o.

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Re: best way to improve swim catch [SnappingT] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 16:24

Post #28 of 48 (2988 views)

Definitely. Off season I’ll be swimming a lot more. Most of the time I do drills during warmup and/or cooldown. But I definitely need to swim more.

Re: best way to improve swim catch [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 16:47

Post #29 of 48 (2977 views)

Thanks. At the moment I can't rotate my elbow anything like what he is doing. Guess I'd beret get practising! Going to get some very odd looks from the wife...

Re: best way to improve swim catch [cartsman] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 19:14

Post #30 of 48 (2943 views)

This is a good video by Chloe Sutton, ex olympic swimmer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1OY_yQBiXM

Re: best way to improve swim catch [fulla] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 20:01

Post #31 of 48 (2921 views)

fulla wrote:

This is a good video by Chloe Sutton, ex olympic swimmer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1OY_yQBiXM

I liked that video. Lots of good stuff to work on. Probably best to only work on one thing at a time!

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

Re: best way to improve swim catch [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 20:15

Post #32 of 48 (2915 views)

hugoagogo wrote:

I always respond to questions about catch with this Jonnyo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM) . Why? (Sadly, I am not getting a commission.) It is because seeing this video was a "no duh" moment for me. The elbow is a hinge -- it only bends in one direction -- if you want the forearm to bend down, you have to point the elbow up. The shoulder is not a hinge. It can rotate. To get a good catch you have to rotate your arm at the shoulder so your elbow points up. If your elbow is pointing to the side, no amount of will power can get that forearm to bend down.

This in no way suggests that others' suggestions won't help. I agree with all/most of them. But for me, I could never make anything work until I saw this video.

That's an excellent way of describing it!

Re: best way to improve swim catch [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 20:24

Post #33 of 48 (2907 views)

lightheir wrote:

The best way to improve swim catch bar none -

Swim MORE. And sometimes HARDER.

There is no trick, especially for slower swimmers. You cannot 'technique' your way without hard work to an excellent catch - the whole essence of an excellent catch (which I'm still working toward - but have made a lot of progress over the years) is that you can pull a lot of water, hard, and repeatedly without fatigue. That takes a lot of work over time, same as running and cycling.

Do be aware of principles such as avoiding the dropped elbow, maintaining early vertical forearm, lack of dead spots/gliding, etc., but the truth is that for slow/BOP swimmers, none of this really matters compared to the weakness in the arms/lats for maintaining enough forward propulsion. To prove this point I'm not even a good swimmer, but I can swim with a 100% dropped elbow using one arm, and having the other arm literally tied behind my back, AND breath by popping my head straight forward out of the water, and I can beat the BOP of triathlon swimmers with that terrible technique (yes, I actually tried this during a triathlon club swim just for kicks! I looked ridiculous, with a bent wrist doggy paddle stroke and a crazy one-armed stroke rate, but I could beat 'em!)

Focus on the most important stuff as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer and don't micromanage the small stuff. Your mission as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer is to swim as much as possible, and incorporate as much intensity as possible without straining your shoulders - and do it with a LONG term approach (not the swim tons for 2 weeks, the quit approach.)

Skip the water, jump on the vasa trainer and work up a sweat. After improving on the vasa trainer then return to the pool? After all, it is mote time effective this way.

Re: best way to improve swim catch [Billyk24] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 21:09

Post #34 of 48 (2892 views)

Billyk24 wrote:

lightheir wrote:

The best way to improve swim catch bar none -

Swim MORE. And sometimes HARDER.

There is no trick, especially for slower swimmers. You cannot 'technique' your way without hard work to an excellent catch - the whole essence of an excellent catch (which I'm still working toward - but have made a lot of progress over the years) is that you can pull a lot of water, hard, and repeatedly without fatigue. That takes a lot of work over time, same as running and cycling.

Do be aware of principles such as avoiding the dropped elbow, maintaining early vertical forearm, lack of dead spots/gliding, etc., but the truth is that for slow/BOP swimmers, none of this really matters compared to the weakness in the arms/lats for maintaining enough forward propulsion. To prove this point I'm not even a good swimmer, but I can swim with a 100% dropped elbow using one arm, and having the other arm literally tied behind my back, AND breath by popping my head straight forward out of the water, and I can beat the BOP of triathlon swimmers with that terrible technique (yes, I actually tried this during a triathlon club swim just for kicks! I looked ridiculous, with a bent wrist doggy paddle stroke and a crazy one-armed stroke rate, but I could beat 'em!)

Focus on the most important stuff as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer and don't micromanage the small stuff. Your mission as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer is to swim as much as possible, and incorporate as much intensity as possible without straining your shoulders - and do it with a LONG term approach (not the swim tons for 2 weeks, the quit approach.)

Skip the water, jump on the vasa trainer and work up a sweat. After improving on the vasa trainer then return to the pool? After all, it is mote time effective this way.

Actually, yeah. Not even joking. But not everyone owns a $2k vasa so I only mention if if they already own one.

You can get in 2 hours on the vasa for every hour in the pool since you cut out all the travel time and prep, but it's admittedly harder to get your HR up on the Vasa, so its a better tool for hitting the arm swim muscles, and using bike/run to get your cardio solid (they complement really well!)

Re: best way to improve swim catch [gary p] [ In reply to ]

Jul 16, 18 23:10

Post #35 of 48 (2855 views)

gary p wrote:

When my catch feel starts to feel a little lost, I pull a set of Speedo Biofuse Finger Paddles out of the bag. They've been discontinued, but I still see them once in a while online. I'm sure there are similar paddles from other makers out there.

For reinforcing early vertical forearm, "fist drill" is my go-to. I count strokes, trying to get down to no more than 1+ the # I would take with hand open.

Last couple of days I've been swimming with fists. Frig!

Day 1 I was all over the place, snaking through the water like a rookie. It really necessitates using the kick, which is a good thing.

Day #3 was today, actually felt pretty composed, co-ordinated with my kick too,

The biggest problem with fists is going so slow. We are always pushing to go faster and you have to park the ego, hit the slow lane. I was @ the lake so snuck out at the crack of dawn :)

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Re: best way to improve swim catch [Billyk24] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 3:55

Post #36 of 48 (2802 views)

A vasa trainer would be nice

Re: best way to improve swim catch [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 6:39

Post #37 of 48 (2761 views)

I totally forgot another good drill. Doggy paddle drill. Again, not a replacement for swimming more but just helps one get a better feel for the catch.

Re: best way to improve swim catch [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 7:03

Post #38 of 48 (2743 views)

Thanks for the useful tips! So timely. I'm thinking of doing a few sprints this year and recently bought my first wetsuit. I found reviews about best triathlon wetsuit and decided to order one for my trainings. Hope one day I'll sign up for an Olympic distance.

Last edited by: gomes766: Jul 24, 18 1:47

Re: best way to improve swim catch [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 10:56

Post #39 of 48 (2678 views)

Thomas Gerlach wrote:

Do you do any band swimming at all? You really have to develop better mechanics to get thru the water with a band on and it may help develop those mechanics naturally without thinking about it. You can take an old bike tube and make a make shift band, otherwise Finis makes one as well.

Somehow this got ignored in the clutter and chatter of this thread. Lots of people say lots of bad things, or at least say there is no value, in using a band for improving swimming technique, and that is a shame. Tie someone's ankles together and watch them try to swim and you can tell right away if body position, rotation, head movement, and catch are not correct. Most people I've seen use a band, who actually stay with it until they can swim comfortable wearing it, correct all those problems without a bunch of drills and exercises in pretty short order. You just start making adjustments to not drown and before you know it your form is fixed.

"...the street finds its own uses for things"

Re: best way to improve swim catch [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]

Jul 17, 18 14:43

Post #40 of 48 (2615 views)

SharkFM wrote:

gary p wrote:

When my catch feel starts to feel a little lost, I pull a set of Speedo Biofuse Finger Paddles out of the bag. They've been discontinued, but I still see them once in a while online. I'm sure there are similar paddles from other makers out there.

For reinforcing early vertical forearm, "fist drill" is my go-to. I count strokes, trying to get down to no more than 1+ the # I would take with hand open.

Last couple of days I've been swimming with fists. Frig!

Day 1 I was all over the place, snaking through the water like a rookie. It really necessitates using the kick, which is a good thing.

Day #3 was today, actually felt pretty composed, co-ordinated with my kick too,

The biggest problem with fists is going so slow. We are always pushing to go faster and you have to park the ego, hit the slow lane. I was @ the lake so snuck out at the crack of dawn :)

Fist swims are good stuff. I actually don't go that much slower than normal, and I do my regular minimal barely 2-beat kick (def no kicking like crazy!)

The key for me is to amp up the arm turnover during the fist swims since there's less resistance against the water. This keeps you honest in terms of effort as well, and better simulates the kind of effort you will need for racing, as opposed to a relaxed, mellower drill.

The last time I did this, I slowed about 5-6 sec/100 when going to fists without amping up the effort, but I could actually get within 1 sec of my normal speed if I really drove up the turnover rate.

I do think fist drills are really good for working on the catch though. I'd go so far as to say it's far superior to ankle-banded swimming - for me, the ankle band is the king of body position training, including removing excess motions, but it doesn't really help the EVF.

I actually do ankle bands + fists as well - that's good stuff!

Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 17, 18 14:43

Re: best way to improve swim catch [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jul 18, 18 10:42

Post #41 of 48 (2492 views)

No doubt a VASA trainer is a good tool. If you can't afford one, this is next best thing on dry land IMO:
Stretch cords with paddles

I still use these occasionally, but back in my competitive days stretch cords were part of every dryland session. We had one vasa trainer for the team, so that also got used in a circuit-style dryland workout. Also to be clear, I only every simulate a butterfly stroke, but I suppose with a little effort single arm could work too.

As for drills, I do these as part of every single session, in warmup. If I'm cutting it short I'll do a 50 of each, otherwise twice through this rotation:

5-kick roll drill (take a stroke, and a breath, then return your head to forward while maintaining body position, kick 5 times, then take the next stroke) -- this sort of stops your stroke and isolates your body position in the glide phase, and forces a catch from a static position.

Single-arm, with the non-pulling arm *by your side* instead of out front, breathing away from your pulling arm. I think this version is better than arm out front as you can fully roll both ways.

Fist drill. Because it highlights all the other water you can move without your hand.

Catch-up drill. I like the feeling of pulling each arm hard, individually, feeling my body surge up and forward while attempting to maintain a good forward speed.

Note that all these drills are done with some effort, they shouldn't be lazy or easy. Every pull has some force behind it, and a steady kick. So yeah, I also agree with your swim harder advice.

-----

Re: best way to improve swim catch [AutomaticJack] [ In reply to ]

Jul 18, 18 12:59

Post #42 of 48 (2448 views)

AutomaticJack wrote:

You just start making adjustments to not drown.....

Haha! Pretty well describes every one of my swim workouts, with or without a band.

---------------------------------------------------------------

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Re: best way to improve swim catch [fulla] [ In reply to ]

Jul 18, 18 13:06

Post #43 of 48 (2442 views)

fulla wrote:

This is a good video by Chloe Sutton, ex olympic swimmer:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1OY_yQBiXM

hugoagogo wrote:

I always respond to questions about catch with this Jonnyo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM) .

I would just like to thank you both for posting these. I watched both before heading to the pool today, and they led to 'aha moments' for me. Translated to immediate and significant improvements.

Re: best way to improve swim catch [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 18, 18 15:16

Post #44 of 48 (2397 views)

hugoagogo wrote:

I always respond to questions about catch with this Jonnyo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM) . Why? (Sadly, I am not getting a commission.) It is because seeing this video was a "no duh" moment for me. The elbow is a hinge -- it only bends in one direction -- if you want the forearm to bend down, you have to point the elbow up. The shoulder is not a hinge. It can rotate. To get a good catch you have to rotate your arm at the shoulder so your elbow points up. If your elbow is pointing to the side, no amount of will power can get that forearm to bend down.

This in no way suggests that others' suggestions won't help. I agree with all/most of them. But for me, I could never make anything work until I saw this video.

This ^^^^^

If you can't do this motion on dry land, it's almost a certainty you won't be able to do it in the water. Rehearse this motion with both left and right arms on dry land until it is natural, then rehearse it some more. When you think you've rehearsed it enough, rehease it a little bit more. Then you might be ready to take it to the water.

"Obsessed is just a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.

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Re: best way to improve swim catch [sjn] [ In reply to ]

Jul 19, 18 11:12

Post #45 of 48 (2279 views)

sjn wrote:

I would just like to thank you both for posting these. I watched both before heading to the pool today, and they led to 'aha moments' for me. Translated to immediate and significant improvements.

Your welcome. I also think you show more class than I with your "aha" versus my "no duh."

Re: best way to improve swim catch [hugoagogo] [ In reply to ]

Jul 23, 18 12:29

Post #46 of 48 (2115 views)

hugoagogo wrote:

I always respond to questions about catch with this Jonnyo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM) . Why? (Sadly, I am not getting a commission.) It is because seeing this video was a "no duh" moment for me. The elbow is a hinge -- it only bends in one direction -- if you want the forearm to bend down, you have to point the elbow up. The shoulder is not a hinge. It can rotate. To get a good catch you have to rotate your arm at the shoulder so your elbow points up. If your elbow is pointing to the side, no amount of will power can get that forearm to bend down.

This in no way suggests that others' suggestions won't help. I agree with all/most of them. But for me, I could never make anything work until I saw this video.

I'd not seen this before and it's really helped. Thanks!

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com

Re: best way to improve swim catch [lightheir] [ In reply to ]

Jul 31, 18 6:32

Post #47 of 48 (1952 views)

lightheir wrote:

The best way to improve swim catch bar none -

Swim MORE. And sometimes HARDER.

There is no trick, especially for slower swimmers. You cannot 'technique' your way without hard work to an excellent catch - the whole essence of an excellent catch (which I'm still working toward - but have made a lot of progress over the years) is that you can pull a lot of water, hard, and repeatedly without fatigue. That takes a lot of work over time, same as running and cycling.

Do be aware of principles such as avoiding the dropped elbow, maintaining early vertical forearm, lack of dead spots/gliding, etc., but the truth is that for slow/BOP swimmers, none of this really matters compared to the weakness in the arms/lats for maintaining enough forward propulsion. To prove this point I'm not even a good swimmer, but I can swim with a 100% dropped elbow using one arm, and having the other arm literally tied behind my back, AND breath by popping my head straight forward out of the water, and I can beat the BOP of triathlon swimmers with that terrible technique (yes, I actually tried this during a triathlon club swim just for kicks! I looked ridiculous, with a bent wrist doggy paddle stroke and a crazy one-armed stroke rate, but I could beat 'em!)

Focus on the most important stuff as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer and don't micromanage the small stuff. Your mission as a BOP/BOMOP swimmer is to swim as much as possible, and incorporate as much intensity as possible without straining your shoulders - and do it with a LONG term approach (not the swim tons for 2 weeks, the quit approach.)

One thing I've learned is I tend NOT to seat/anchor my hand for the catch to make for any semblance of a strong pull. So I'm just not pulling a lot of water. I think that's been a big problem for me. And for the past month, I've just focusing on making sure I am "anchoring" my hand during the catch so I can actually pull more water. It's something I feel, it's just at this point I have to think about it, especially on my non-dominant side. I think I'll just focus on that for awhile until it becomes more natural. I use the finis agility paddles some which help but mostly it's just me being aware of it and not allowing myself to get lazy on the catch.

Re: best way to improve swim catch [k9car363] [ In reply to ]

Jul 31, 18 16:19

Post #48 of 48 (1858 views)

k9car363 wrote:

hugoagogo wrote:

I always respond to questions about catch with this Jonnyo video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1KReTEXiBM) . Why? (Sadly, I am not getting a commission.) It is because seeing this video was a "no duh" moment for me. The elbow is a hinge -- it only bends in one direction -- if you want the forearm to bend down, you have to point the elbow up. The shoulder is not a hinge. It can rotate. To get a good catch you have to rotate your arm at the shoulder so your elbow points up. If your elbow is pointing to the side, no amount of will power can get that forearm to bend down.

This in no way suggests that others' suggestions won't help. I agree with all/most of them. But for me, I could never make anything work until I saw this video.

This ^^^^^

If you can't do this motion on dry land, it's almost a certainty you won't be able to do it in the water. Rehearse this motion with both left and right arms on dry land until it is natural, then rehearse it some more. When you think you've rehearsed it enough, rehease it a little bit more. Then you might be ready to take it to the water.

Can/could cause swimmers shoulder due to the internal rotation that occurs when one is attempting/seeking to point the elbow at the ceiling.

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