FTP Question (and Tremblant)...

Jun 27, 18 4:54

Post #1 of 20 (1801 views)

So I did the 70.3 this past weekend at Tremblant, got a PB, happy, but frustrated with what I had to do to get it...
I've done the 70.3 every year there, and every year I've ended up cramping on the run and doing at least some amount of walking, sometimes a lot...
This year I was determined to hold back even more than usual on the bike....

Measured on my kickr, my ftp seems to range between 260 and 270.

In the past, I've had a P2M power meter which would usually measure around 10 watts lower than the kickr.

So my previous couple of attempts at MT with the P2M, I did around 186AP and 200NP. I think one year was around 2:33 split, one was around 2:39, not sure why the diff, maybe I didn't hold aero as well on one, maybe different wind conditions... Same bike, etc. Leg cramps both times.

This year, with a stages single sided PM, I did 160AP and 181NP. I made a point of holding aero as much as possible to make up a bit for the lower power. I also took an easier gear for the hills, a 32 in the back (previously went with a 28). I ended up with a 2:37 bike split, which surprised me, I expected slower given the low AP....and for once I made it through the run (jog) with no walking. Legs felt on the verge of going most of the time, but kept a slow steady 5:20/km pace, and managed about a 4:50 pace for the last couple km's as I figured I was close enough to the finish to risk cramping. There was no point in the race, on the bike or the run, that I ever felt like I was pushing even remotely hard.

SO.........why the hell do I need to ride like a 60-65% or so of my FTP in order not to cramp on the run in a 70.3? What am I doing wrong? Again, the ride felt stupid easy, but I knew if I pushed harder, I'd be walking at some point on the run. I don't get it. :(

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:27

Post #2 of 20 (1755 views)

I am willing to bet that in aero position, your ftp is lower and therefore your 180 NP isn’t 65%.

I am similar to you. Ftp 275 which I do on my road bike indoors. Can do Polar Bear no problems which is 2 hrs at 80% on TR (which is 220W) with a brick.

But in a HIM, I’ll ride 190-200W. 220 feels way too hard in aero.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [KingMidas] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:32

Post #3 of 20 (1733 views)

Thanks, you may very well be correct, and I guess I am making a mistake of looking at AP instead of NP. Looks like I have a VI of about 1.13....not sure if that is bad, I tried to go super easy on the hills, but I also made a point of gliding down the steeper hills to rest...

I do Cartago (3 hours) fairly often on trainer road with ftp set anywhere from 270-290, but I don't do long runs after that one...and I'm probably not holding aero during a lot of those 3 hours...

Still incredibly frustrating that I have to do a ride that feels -SO- damn easy in order to not cramp on the run.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:36

Post #4 of 20 (1721 views)

Are you riding on the trainer in aero position?

How is your nutrition the morning of the race and on the bike?

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:37

Post #5 of 20 (1719 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

Thanks, you may very well be correct, and I guess I am making a mistake of looking at AP instead of NP. Looks like I have a VI of about 1.13....not sure if that is bad, I tried to go super easy on the hills, but I also made a point of gliding down the steeper hills to rest...

I do Cartago (3 hours) fairly often on trainer road with ftp set anywhere from 270-290, but I don't do long runs after that one...and I'm probably not holding aero during a lot of those 3 hours...

Still incredibly frustrating that I have to do a ride that feels -SO- damn easy in order to not cramp on the run.

I am with you. I have the same problem in IM’s. I have to go almost 55% in order to not cramp on runs. It’s very frustrating.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [stevej] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:54

Post #6 of 20 (1677 views)

stevej wrote:

Are you riding on the trainer in aero position?

How is your nutrition the morning of the race and on the bike?

Are you riding on the trainer in aero position? - Probably not nearly enough...

How is your nutrition the morning of the race and on the bike? - I think nutrition is good. I've experimented with different amounts of calories, salt, magic potions, etc etc both before and during the race, never much difference. Currently the morning of a 70.3 breakfast is a couple cups of coffee, bagel with pbutter, and a banana. Then sip on EFS before swim and one gel before swim.
Bike this time was EFS in two bottles (2 scoops each) with an extra scoop of base salts added to each, two endurolytes tabs during ride, half a cliff bar, 3 gels, and had about a third of a banana from an aid station. Also took a few chugs of gatorade from each aid station. I never felt hungry or thirsty during the ride, felt like I took plenty in, and had to pee twice.... :) By my count, I took in roughly 750 calories during the bike.

Last edited by: SBRcanuck: Jun 27, 18 5:55

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 5:58

Post #7 of 20 (1663 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

This year, with a stages single sided PM, I did 160AP and 181NP. (

One other point to consider is that if your right leg is producing more power than your left one at this effort level and or position, the Stages will be under reporting your true output.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [sciguy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 6:01

Post #8 of 20 (1652 views)

sciguy wrote:

SBRcanuck wrote:

This year, with a stages single sided PM, I did 160AP and 181NP. (

One other point to consider is that if your right leg is producing more power than your left one at this effort level and or position, the Stages will be under reporting your true output.

YMMV,

Hugh

Thanks. I do actually have a known imbalance, but it is the opposite, my left leg produces more. On my P2M, it would usually be a 52/48 split.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 6:06

Post #9 of 20 (1637 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

sciguy wrote:

SBRcanuck wrote:

This year, with a stages single sided PM, I did 160AP and 181NP. (

One other point to consider is that if your right leg is producing more power than your left one at this effort level and or position, the Stages will be under reporting your true output.

YMMV,

Hugh

Thanks. I do actually have a known imbalance, but it is the opposite, my left leg produces more. On my P2M, it would usually be a 52/48 split.

One must take into account that the Power2max only "estimates" the balance assuming you're producing all the power on the down stroke and unweight equally on both sides. This might or might not be the case. In my case, I unweight much more effectively with my right leg which makes my left leg "seem" more powerful than it really is.

YMMV,

Hugh

Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 7:21

Post #10 of 20 (1545 views)

SBRcanuck wrote:

Looks like I have a VI of about 1.13....not sure if that is bad, I tried to go super easy on the hills, but I also made a point of gliding down the steeper hills to rest...

A VI of 1.13 is pretty high. Mine was 1.038. Certainly gliding down the steeper hills to rest will contribute to significantly to a high VI. Dropping down in power so much I would guess that you should be able to maintain power on the downhills without additional impact on your run. I keep the power on until high 30s mph.

I try and stay aero as much as possible on long steady state trainer rides. I am aero for a decent portion of my FTP test too.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 8:58

Post #11 of 20 (1453 views)

1.13 VI is way too high. You must have been riding hard up and coasting/ ez spin down. Definitely will make your quads work a bit harder

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:00

Post #12 of 20 (1448 views)

You are citing three different power meters. Currently it looks like you are comparing your kickr to your stages. To me this makes it difficult to get an accurate IF for your race comparing your race power (stages) to your kickr power (ftp estimate) due to potential differences in the power meters.

Furthermore, you state you tried to hold back on the bike. For me, going out at .85 or even .8 for 56 miles is a hard effort. It does not fee like holding back, but is conservative enough to allow me to run well. Given how you describe your race, it is entirely possible you were well below .8. That said, in my mind, comparing stages power to kickr power is apples to oranges. Or at least grapefruit to oranges.

Why aren't you using your stages indoors? If you use the same power meter indoors and outdoors you can make more meaningful comparisons.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:11

Post #13 of 20 (1427 views)

How’s your overall bike/run fitness - Are you getting enough overall mileage?

Are you perhaps pushing the run hard and that’s causing cramping?

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [mvenneta] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:19

Post #14 of 20 (1409 views)

mvenneta wrote:

How’s your overall bike/run fitness - Are you getting enough overall mileage?

Are you perhaps pushing the run hard and that’s causing cramping?

I would say good. Not great. I probably get about 10 hours of training in per week average. Usual excuses, work, kids, etc. My swim at MT was actually a PB as well, 32 and change, about a minute faster than last year. I probably don't do enough bike/run bricks. That said, it seems to be mainly the bike that causes my cramps, because when it happens, it's either before the end of the bike, or within the first 5-6km of the run. Its not like things are perfect until the 15km+ mark..

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [IMStillTrying] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:20

Post #15 of 20 (1402 views)

IMStillTrying wrote:

1.13 VI is way too high. You must have been riding hard up and coasting/ ez spin down. Definitely will make your quads work a bit harder

I definitely wasn't pushing hard on the uphills, I had a 32 on the back and felt like a tourist going up the hills, purposely taking it easy. But yes, I would then glide down the other side once up to speed.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:21

Post #16 of 20 (1393 views)

TennesseeJed wrote:

..

Why aren't you using your stages indoors? If you use the same power meter indoors and outdoors you can make more meaningful comparisons.

Good question... I've had the kickr for a few years now and just never bothered trying to use a power meter to control it. The stages PM is new to me as of a few weeks ago, so maybe I will look up the instructions online and start using the stages PM to control the kickr from now on.
And on top o that, perhaps a good time to do a fresh ftp test, making sure to hold aero...

Last edited by: SBRcanuck: Jun 27, 18 9:22

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 9:42

Post #17 of 20 (1362 views)

What software are you using to control the kickr?

As for an FTP test, I don't test in aero, maybe some do but I don't. I push the most power I can in whatever position feels best. I use a 20 min test. My 20 min power is definitely lower in aero position but I am not convinced that translates down to the lower intensities I race at. Above FTP I can feel fatigue quicker in aero, but below about FTP I do not feel as though it is harder. I would be curious my time to exhaustion at 90% FTP in aero vs. out but not curious enough to put myself through that misery. Additionally, I find that after an FTP increase I spend a good amount of time adapting that new power to my Aero position. On the trainer this is the form of "Aero Intervals" where I set targets within broader intervals (ie. 4 min aero, 1 min upright during a 10 min interval). Outside I am usually doing more tempo or endurance work where terrain really is the only thing dictating my position. Aero at all times I can hold the position safely or until the road tips up and slows me down below 15mph.

... but yes you should probably retest seeing as you have a new PM.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 10:44

Post #18 of 20 (1309 views)

Thanks for the info.
I pretty much only use trainer road with the kickr.

Cheers

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [SBRcanuck] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 10:54

Post #19 of 20 (1291 views)

Really like trainerroad's powermatch. It just reads and displays your stages and adjusts your kickr so that the power you are producing on your stages matches the interval target. Set up is as simply as pairing your kickr and stages to the app, and going into the stages PM device in TR and enabling powermatch.

This has the added benefit of no longer requiring you do a kickr spin down. With powermatch the kickr calibration is largely irrelevant.

Re: FTP Question (and Tremblant)... [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]

Jun 27, 18 10:57

Post #20 of 20 (1285 views)

Cool, thanks!

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