Should I be running slower?

Jun 25, 18 11:23

Post #1 of 22 (4467 views)

I've never considered myself fast so I feel odd even asking this question, but I've read a few threads about how slow a lot of people do their training runs relative to their races and I'm starting to wonder if I should be running easier during training runs.

For context, I'll typically run an open 5K in 18:30-18:40 and my open half is a 1:25. When I go out on training runs I don't focus on pace I just run what feels generally easy, which usually ends up between 7:30-7:50/mile.

I've been following the BarryP plan since the end of last season with the hopes of building consistency, mileage, and staying injury free. Everything was working great from November through May. I slowly built mileage up to 35-40 mpw and runs felt great, but over this past month I've developed a few nagging pains (right hip, low back, left knee). In order to keep up my run mileage without making matters worse, any thoughts on whether I should be training slower?

An obvious answer would be to give it a try and see how I feel, but I it seems like whenever I try to run extra easy I feel like I'm running really sloppy. Is it common to feel like your form gets worse when you're running extra easy? Any suggestions for something to focus on so I don't ingrain bad habits (of maybe it's all in my mind and I'm running fine)?

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 11:45

Post #2 of 22 (4407 views)

Your VDOT easy pace is around 8:00 so just based on that, 7:30-7:50 is a little bit too fast (I am not the expert, but followed the BarryP program for years and it focuses on this pace)

In the past 6 months I ran 18:00 flat and 1:22 in those distances and most of my runs hover around 8 minute pace +-15 seconds, except for some tempo/progression runs once per week where I get down to close to HM pace.

I am also 6'2" and 180lb so my legs typically can't keep up with my aerobic capacity, i.e. they don't perform well until I rest, so YMMV. If you weigh less you might be able to get away with a faster training pace. But based on what you said, you might benefit from running slower on MOST days and targeting a few faster runs.

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:08

Post #3 of 22 (4342 views)

1. If you are asking the question, the answer is probably "yes".
2. If you are getting nagging pains, the answer is probably "yes".

That coupled with the VDOT noted by sch340 below...says, "yep, you are probably running a bit too fast".

Hard to answer the "form" thing without seeing you run. If you are really having issues, then you could consider a gait analysis by someone qualified (not most running stores even though they sometimes offer this service). But, making willy nilly form changes is more of a recipe for further injury than "just running".

Relax and run naturally and easily.

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:11

Post #4 of 22 (4332 views)

It's really, really hard to run too slow and really, really easy to run too fast on easy/aerobic days

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Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:22

Post #5 of 22 (4295 views)

I personally buy into the slow, slow miles plan. My normal easy day is between 8-9min per mile pace, 30-60 minutes, depending on how tired I am. The goal is to hit the hard days hard and the easy days easy.

For context on pace, I was probably in 15:15 5K pace this season when I was peaking.

Alex Arman

Strava

Re: Should I be running slower? [doublea334] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:34

Post #6 of 22 (4249 views)

x 2 (well, except that 5k pace).

I just listened to an episode of the Triathlete Training Podcast, where Richard Murray was the guest. He's top-10 in the ITU rankings, runs like the wind. He said that he does his easy runs at a pace of something like 5 minutes per kilometer or slower. The VDOT tables (and accompanying pace tables) are a good reference point.

Attacking this day with enthusiasm unknown to mankind.

Re: Should I be running slower? [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:37

Post #7 of 22 (4237 views)

sch340 wrote:

Your VDOT easy pace is around 8:00 so just based on that, 7:30-7:50 is a little bit too fast (I am not the expert, but followed the BarryP program for years and it focuses on this pace)

In the past 6 months I ran 18:00 flat and 1:22 in those distances and most of my runs hover around 8 minute pace +-15 seconds, except for some tempo/progression runs once per week where I get down to close to HM pace.

I am also 6'2" and 180lb so my legs typically can't keep up with my aerobic capacity, i.e. they don't perform well until I rest, so YMMV. If you weigh less you might be able to get away with a faster training pace. But based on what you said, you might benefit from running slower on MOST days and targeting a few faster runs.

I'm 6'2" and 175lb, so physically pretty similar but not as fast as you. Hopefully I can get over these hip/back/knee issues with some easy running (and some core/glute/hip strengthening) and some day I'll be able to get down to those faster times!

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:48

Post #8 of 22 (4189 views)

I'm 6'3", 173 and a pretty strong runner (1:18 HIM run), and have only in the past year learned to take easy runs easy. In college any easy run was at or below 7 min pace so I just took that mentality to my tri training for the longest time. Honestly I didn't feel awful or have any terrible nagging pains but I have had my fastest race times doing most of my runs at 7:45-8 pace. It helps that I run with my wife so I don't feel like I need to push the pace but it would be worth at least trying to keep that easy miles a bit easier I think.

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Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 12:53

Post #9 of 22 (4170 views)

Northy wrote:

I'm 6'2" and 175lb, so physically pretty similar but not as fast as you. Hopefully I can get over these hip/back/knee issues with some easy running (and some core/glute/hip strengthening) and some day I'll be able to get down to those faster times!

For all intents and purposes (at least when it comes to training) it looks like we are nearly identical on run speed/build. I have had about a half dozen minor to serious injuries over the past 8-9 years since I started running, all of which have come from running too fast - so based on what you wrote above I would definitely approach with caution. We have more weight to carry around than some of this super fast folks that are 20-40 lb lighter. I've made pretty much all gains on slow running in the 8 min/mile range with some tempo thrown in here and there per the BarryP plan.

Like doublea said above - easy days are EASY, hard days are HARD (and now I don't feel bad when I drop down to 8:30 pace!!). The base easy miles + the tempo runs will make you faster.

Re: Should I be running slower? [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 13:20

Post #10 of 22 (4077 views)

sch340 wrote:

I've made pretty much all gains on slow running in the 8 min/mile range with some tempo thrown in here and there per the BarryP plan.

Like doublea said above - easy days are EASY, hard days are HARD (and now I don't feel bad when I drop down to 8:30 pace!!). The base easy miles + the tempo runs will make you faster.

So what are your tempo or hard days like? With the exception of a couple races and a few hill repeat days I haven't been doing regular speed work since starting BarryP. I figured I'd try to keep consistent throughout a full season and then add the speed work back in. My goal race is the Tremblant full in August so it's debatable whether speed work is going to be a deciding factor in whether I have a good race or not, but I'm still curious what your hard workouts are like given our similarities.

This is all assuming my hip/back/knee issues don't get worse.

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 13:36

Post #11 of 22 (4037 views)

Once the base mileage is there, tempo runs will be anywhere from 10-40 minutes (building weekly) at about Half Marathon pace in the middle of one of the medium runs. I think a better description of this may be in part 2 or 3 of BarryP's post. But it won't be more than 10% of weekly mileage at most.

Based on what I've read this is more of the proverbial "icing on the cake" so if you have aches and pains you're probably better off with sticking to all easy running (as many of the posters here that are smarter than me have noted).

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 15:12

Post #12 of 22 (3887 views)

Are you specifically training for 5K or are you just using it as a benchmark?
My 5K times were exactly where yours are when I asked that same question, which may or may not be consequential. I achieved those times by doing basically two different workouts: 5K time trials and 1 to 2 mile repeats. Always maximal efforts with a day or two of rest in between; very high intensity, very low volume. Then I started reading that I needed to incorporate much more volume at much lower intensities (~zone 2 heart rate reserve). After 6 months of predominantly high volume (40-50 mpw), low intensity miles, I could barely even run a single six minute mile. I've tried a similar high volume, low intensity program since that time for both the run and the bike, and they've all been abysmal failures, both for the 5k and 10k runs and for ftp. I seem to be the only one around with this experience, but nevertheless, that has been my experience. Always keep thorough training logs.

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Re: Should I be running slower? [domingjm] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 15:52

Post #13 of 22 (3837 views)

I don't think that approach is really prescribed for the bike.

The high frequency/volume low intensity approach is prescribed for the run to build base endurance and durability at a lower risk of injury. You'd only add in some tempo/fartlek/etc... efforts after you have a decent base running mileage.

The easy mileage approach isn't necessary for the bike (or swim for that matter) since the injury risk from hard efforts is nowhere near as high as running.

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 18:39

Post #14 of 22 (3675 views)

I find it hard too as bio-mechanically I have a pace that feels easier physically that I like to run and to me feels the easiest pace. I can run slower and my heart rate lowers but it doesn't feel as nice to run. My coach is often telling me to slow down. I used to get niggles I had to deal with but in the last few years since going to soft shoes originally Altra and now Hoka I get no soreness, niggles or injuries and still generally run in my sweet spot 4:45/km.

Re: Should I be running slower? [Northy] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 20:43

Post #15 of 22 (3563 views)

At 35-40 miles per week it doesn't matter as much how fast you run your easy runs. You can get away with a lot. But as you start going north of that, it starts to matter a lot. You are right at the seam.

You said that when you "run extra easy" you feel sloppy. But are you really aiming for "easy" or are you aiming for "slow"? That is, are you focusing on pace or intensity?

It's quite possible to run easy and not get sloppy at all. But when people try to run slowly and they think about pace, I think sometimes they alter their form. Their stride either gets choppy or they start slowing down their cadence or some other thing that just messes things up.

Running easy is just relaxing. Same cadence, same form, just mostly not trying to push off so hard. At least that's how it seems to me This might not be the issue for you at all but it's something to investigate

Last edited by: JoeO: Jun 25, 18 20:44

Re: Should I be running slower? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Jun 25, 18 21:05

Post #16 of 22 (3535 views)

Your cadence should NOT be the same during your easy runs, cadence increases as speed increases. Form should always be the same though, even though it is very hard to run with good form when running 9 min miles, which is why strides and 200m speints are incorporated in training to increase efficiency and perfect form.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon

Re: Should I be running slower? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 18 6:59

Post #17 of 22 (3264 views)

I've wondered if there's a rough tipping point in terms of mpw above which it's more important to let easy runs be especially easy. And being a somewhat larger person I've wondered if that tipping point is lower than for lighter runners. Plus I've generally been on the low volume side of training, typically around 20±5 mpw of running before this season. I figured a 1:25 half marathon and 4:2X half iron weren't too bad off relatively little running, but I'm hoping to get myself more toward the pointy end of the field and running 20 mpw isn't going to cut it.

The "running sloppy" may just be in my head. Focusing on intensity and making sure the run feels easy rather than checking my watch for a specific pace seems like a good place to start.

Re: Should I be running slower? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 18 7:07

Post #18 of 22 (3249 views)

JoeO wrote:

At 35-40 miles per week it doesn't matter as much how fast you run your easy runs. You can get away with a lot. But as you start going north of that, it starts to matter a lot.

IME, that's right on point. I've averaged parts of the season at 40mpw and ran pretty easily at 7:30/mile. I'm now putting in 50+ mpw (with hardly any tempo/speed) and my body naturally settles in at 8:00/mile. What's hard is letting the ego go.

@floathammerholdon | @partners_in_tri

Re: Should I be running slower? [JoeO] [ In reply to ]

Jun 26, 18 7:25

Post #19 of 22 (3206 views)

JoeO wrote:

At 35-40 miles per week it doesn't matter as much how fast you run your easy runs. You can get away with a lot. But as you start going north of that, it starts to matter a lot. You are right at the seam.

Completely agree, and I'll add that adding bike/swim volume also affects run speed in a big way. Start putting in 5+ hrs/week of biking and it just doesn't make sense to do much fast running, especially if you are training for HIM / IM distances.

Re: Should I be running slower? [oscaro] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 18 14:00

Post #20 of 22 (2890 views)

oscaro wrote:

Your cadence should NOT be the same during your easy runs, cadence increases as speed increases. Form should always be the same though, even though it is very hard to run with good form when running 9 min miles, which is why strides and 200m speints are incorporated in training to increase efficiency and perfect form.

There's not really a "should" for cadence. Some people stay the same almost throughout the range. I'll grant you that most people do increase as they go to faster speeds. But it's not like there's a linear relationship.

Re: Should I be running slower? [sch340] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 18 14:09

Post #21 of 22 (2879 views)

[quote]it just doesn't make sense to do much fast running, especially if you are training for HIM / IM distances[/quote]

But it makes sense to do some fast running especially if training for halfs/IMs

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: Should I be running slower? [JoeO & oscaro] [ In reply to ]

Jun 28, 18 14:12

Post #22 of 22 (2873 views)

Stride rate aka cadence changes with velocity as does stride length.

Stride length just increases/decreases to a greater degree as velocity increases or decreases vs cadence

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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