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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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He put in a link. If the posters who mostly think as you do can't figure out that he is posting from an article discussing Obama's secret campaign to block the IG's from doing their job, maybe your posters aren't very bright. Of course, why would Obama block the IG's from doing their job? Makes one wonder.

Slowman wrote:
dave_w wrote:
Slowman wrote:
big kahuna wrote:
Let's stipulate that there's potentially a problem with the senior leadership (mostly politically appointed), then.


against the actual fact that every appointed FBI director since louis freeh (20+ years ago) has been a republican.

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It should hearten you that BK calls out the guys in spite of their "republicaness". In reality, these guys (at the political pointy end) often are mostly looking out for themselves. I'd read somewhere Comey described as a "Comeyist" by one of those who worked with him. This is decidedly not about the vast majority of agents, but there is certainly a problem at the top of the DOJ agencies when Brennan, Clapper, McCabe, and to a lesser extent Comey can lie with impunity. Of course the report itself covers the loss in trust and prestige the FBI may hold in people's minds, so that's not something BK is inserting here.
As to the report itself, let's hope something of consequence comes from it, unlike so many other times recently:
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"For nearly eight years, the Obama administration sought to cover up serial wrongdoing by waging a veritable war against the watchdog inspectors general of various federal agencies.
In 2014, 47 of the nation's 73 inspectors general signed a letter alleging that Obama had stonewalled their "ability to conduct our work thoroughly, independently, and in a timely manner."
The frustrated nonpartisan auditors cited systematic Obama administration refusals to turn over incriminating documents that were central to their investigations.
The administration had purportedly tried to sidetrack an IG investigation into possible misconduct by then-Sacramento Mayor Kevin Johnson. In addition, the Obama administration reportedly thwarted IG investigations of Amtrak, the Environmental Protection Agency, the Troubled Asset Relief Program and the Office of Management and Budget.
Despite the campaign against these independent federal auditors, a number of inspectors general still managed to issue damning indictments of unethical behavior.
In 2012, Horowitz recommended that 14 Justice Department and ATF officials be disciplined for their conduct in the "Fast and Furious" gun-walking scandal.
A 2013 IG audit found that the IRS had targeted conservative groups for special scrutiny prior to the 2012 Obama re-election effort.
In 2014, an internal audit revealed that CIA officials had hacked the Senate Intelligence Committee's computers while compiling a report on enhanced interrogation techniques. CIA Director John Brennan had claimed that his agents were not improperly monitoring Senate staff computer files. He was forced to retract his denials and apologize for his prevarication.
In 2016, the State Department's inspector general found that Hillary Clinton had never sought approval for her reckless and illegal use of an unsecured private email server. The IG also found that staffers who were worried about national security being compromised by the unsecured server were silenced by other Clinton aides.
Still, Obama was right in a way: A scandal does not become a scandal if no one acts on findings of improper behavior.
Under former attorneys general Eric Holder and Loretta Lynch, the findings of dozens of IGs were snubbed. That raises the question: What good are inspectors general if a president ignores any illegality and impropriety that they have uncovered?"
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2018/06/14/the_silencing_of_the_inspectors_general_137270.html


just, for clarity's sake, you are not quoting here from the IG's report. you're quoting from an opinion piece written by someone who's come under pretty withering criticism for his views.

and that's fine. no problem. just, in the spirit of disclosure.
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:

just, for clarity's sake, you are not quoting here from the IG's report. you're quoting from an opinion piece written by someone who's come under pretty withering criticism for his views.

and that's fine. no problem. just, in the spirit of disclosure.

Pity you don't take the time to so inform all of the TDS posts on here .........
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [wrmattil] [ In reply to ]
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what's a TDS post?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [wrmattil] [ In reply to ]
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wrmattil wrote:
Slowman wrote:


just, for clarity's sake, you are not quoting here from the IG's report. you're quoting from an opinion piece written by someone who's come under pretty withering criticism for his views.

and that's fine. no problem. just, in the spirit of disclosure.


Pity you don't take the time to so inform all of the TDS posts on here .........

I've said it before; at the level of government that folks like Comey and other political appointees occupy it's more about the uniparty -- and the accrual of personal power -- than it is about being a Democrat or a Republican. They save that sort of political ideology theater, and the platitudes attaching to it, for the bumpkins whenever they travel to DC to tour our seat of national government. Once safely in their Georgetown or Arlington or Bethesda homes, they all sit around their dinner party tables with other members of the uniparty, toasting their good health and good fortunes.

Truthfully, I couldn't care less if James Comey is a Republican, or if he's a Democrat or an Independent or a Bernie Bro or he's with her or whatever. The IG report makes clear that he's a glory hound who was trying to play both sides, at minimum, and someone who also wasn't all that good at doing his job, judging by his actions in the Clinton email investigation and in the leaking of his Trump-meeting memo to his law school professor friend, full-well knowing that it would find its way to the pages of various newspapers.

Comey got caught without a chair when the music stopped. Though not a tragic figure, as I've also noted, he did prove that hubris and a desire to deflect potentially legitimate criticism away from the institution of the FBI became his undoing. Hillary Clinton would have fired him on her first day in office, that much is clear. That he lasted as long as he did with the guy currently sitting in the Oval Office is a mystery to me.

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
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   The nub of the piece, in a way, supports Dan's point that govt is great and has these safeguards in place. Ultimately the IG's did their job, but if there is no follow up on the findings, what's the point? It leaves these govt workers with the sense that they can do anything and get away with it. That is pretty much the problem the left is screaming about right now with Trump giving pardons; the signal sent is we can step out of legal lines, get caught, and pay no consequences.
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ps. Hansen points out that some may be held accountable for IG findings, if the damning report happens to be issued after a change in party holding power. I guess this is a case in which partisanship is helpful in actually seeing the right thing is done. All hail partisanship!
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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dave_w wrote:
The nub of the piece, in a way, supports Dan's point that govt is great and has these safeguards in place. Ultimately the IG's did their job, but if there is no follow up on the findings, what's the point? It leaves these govt workers with the sense that they can do anything and get away with it. That is pretty much the problem the left is screaming about right now with Trump giving pardons; the signal sent is we can step out of legal lines, get caught, and pay no consequences.
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ps. Hansen points out that some may be held accountable for IG findings, if the damning report happens to be issued after a change in party holding power. I guess this is a case in which partisanship is helpful in actually seeing the right thing is done. All hail partisanship!

i don't see where you guys are getting all this stuff. hansen's piece was citation free. and that's fine. it's an opinion piece. but, as to no consequences to bad acts? because horowitz has no power to discipline the FBI agents you're saying that the actions are consequence free? because, what i heard wray say is that he has already referred conduct outlined in the IG report to the FBI's office of professional accountability.

"we won't hesitate to hold people accountable for their actions" was i think the exact quote.

so, guys, righties are getting benghazi-brain again. are you really going to fall for that?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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Slowman wrote:
i don't see where you guys are getting all this stuff. hansen's piece was citation free. and that's fine. it's an opinion piece. but, as to no consequences to bad acts? because horowitz has no power to discipline the FBI agents you're saying that the actions are consequence free? because, what i heard wray say is that he has already referred conduct outlined in the IG report to the FBI's office of professional accountability.

"we won't hesitate to hold people accountable for their actions" was i think the exact quote.

so, guys, righties are getting benghazi-brain again. are you really going to fall for that?
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Well yeah, this is the case of the report dropping after a change of party at the Whitehouse, so it's more expected that there will be consequences. Do you have any doubt that Lois Lerner would probably be in jail if the report on IRS activities re the 2012 election dropped during a pub admin?
This is a report mostly about Clinton email stuff, and leaves the Russia probe untouched, so I think it does not sully Mueller's work whatsoever (unless specific of the "five" are on the Mueller team). There is a nexus though, one that Comey suffered under, that being the Weiner laptop that languished in McCabe's office. The thinking is that it did so because McCabe was shifting resources to the Russia investigation. Ironic that so much grief for Comey and possibly a lost election for dems came due to that lack of action.
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [big kahuna] [ In reply to ]
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big kahuna wrote:
The GMAN wrote:
tyrod1 wrote:
If FBI was working against trump, Russia meddling would have been divulged biggly. Probably 60% of organization is conservative leaning. Guys at top though conservative probably knew trump was pond scum.


It’s easily 75 to 80% conservative/Republican leaning amongst the Agent population. If I had to put a guess on it.

That’s why I find the narrative that the Bureau is some rogue liberal slanted agency to be equally laughable and absurd.


I think you touched on a very salient, germane point. Let's stipulate that there's potentially a problem with the senior leadership (mostly politically appointed), then.


I won't necessarily stipulate that. When I say Agent population I'm including everyone from the brand new GS10 up to someone at high level SES.

I'd say the percentage that skews conservative is maybe 10% less among the GS10 to GS13 Agents. Let's call it 2/3rds for argument's sake. The GS10 to GS13 Agents are the guys and girls doing all the investigative work.

The percentage that skews conservative in the GS14/15/SES ranks is probably like 80-90%. These are the decision makers. IMO, the Bureau gets more conservative the higher up you go.

Not necessarily directed at you per se, though you've painted Comey in a certain way, but my one and only defense of Comey is this...

I don't think most people truly understand the butterfly effect that Loretta Lynch caused with the Bill Clinton tarmac meeting. That one meeting set into motion everything that happened after that. Comey does not, under any circumstances, hold that unprecedented July 2016 press conference if Lynch didn't do what she did. She really put him in a tough spot and did him no favors. We can hindsight question his decision making from July 5, 2016 on forward but he almost had to say what he said on July 5th because he felt there was now a perception that main DOJ and the AG was now in a conflict of interest area and they (DOJ) could not reputably make a decision on the Hilary matter... so he was going to make the decision. Well, that's not his job but he made it his job since he didn't think those whose job it was were capable of making the decisions. He was in uncharted waters. I'm not sure what he could or should have done differently. That's just my unofficial $.02.

Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One
Last edited by: The GMAN: Jun 15, 18 20:52
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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dave_w wrote:
Slowman wrote:

i don't see where you guys are getting all this stuff. hansen's piece was citation free. and that's fine. it's an opinion piece. but, as to no consequences to bad acts? because horowitz has no power to discipline the FBI agents you're saying that the actions are consequence free? because, what i heard wray say is that he has already referred conduct outlined in the IG report to the FBI's office of professional accountability.

"we won't hesitate to hold people accountable for their actions" was i think the exact quote.

so, guys, righties are getting benghazi-brain again. are you really going to fall for that?

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Well yeah, this is the case of the report dropping after a change of party at the Whitehouse, so it's more expected that there will be consequences. Do you have any doubt that Lois Lerner would probably be in jail if the report on IRS activities re the 2012 election dropped during a pub admin?
This is a report mostly about Clinton email stuff, and leaves the Russia probe untouched, so I think it does not sully Mueller's work whatsoever (unless specific of the "five" are on the Mueller team). There is a nexus though, one that Comey suffered under, that being the Weiner laptop that languished in McCabe's office. The thinking is that it did so because McCabe was shifting resources to the Russia investigation. Ironic that so much grief for Comey and possibly a lost election for dems came due to that lack of action.


i just don't agree to your stipulations. no, it's not expected that there will be more consequences with this administration. and, i don't want people to be in jail unless they need to be in jail (not because of papyback from an incoming administration). the whole point of an independent FBI - the whole reason congress gave the FBI director 10yr terms by statue back in, what, the 80s - is to keep the FBI independent of politics. no, i push back hard on your view that there's something new or different about the FBI's posture now toward disciplining its own. there is a way to know. ask horowitz. he's been the justice dept's IG for 6 years.

google hansen's article. it didn't end up in realclearpolitics. it ended up there and a couple of dozen rightie mags, which means it wasn't written to be illustrative but propagandist, which is why it's citation free. so, while you're busy being hypnotized by the shiny object...

there is a gravity that will draw you guys into the conspiracy theory vortex, where you decide that the FBI isn't trustworthy, the justice dept isn't trustworthy, the IRS isn't, federal judges aren't, and basically every federal law enforcement or justice entity save the INS is going to be devoid of trust.

i warned about this 2 years ago here, and you all told me no, that can't happen in the U.S., our institutions are too strong, meanwhile it's happening right here on this forum.

here's one thing i will stipulate to: both career employees and political appointees from both parties are prone to an abuse of power. (political more so than career.) it happens. it happens in the military. are you going to lose faith in the military as well? because, i promise you, it happens. the question for you is, have you given up? because if so, okay. just know the alternative: trump very clearly, out of his own mouth, wants to throw every opponent of his in jail, and give everyone loyal to him a pardon. if you want to be afraid of something system happening to this country, there are legitimate things to worry about, if you have the strength of character to parse between the true threats and the propaganda.

couple things to remember. the report just released began under the obama administration, before trump took office. that means obama's justice dept decided to investigate obama's justice dept. why? because it's not obama's justice dept! it's yours and mine! and that's why it's so important that we preserve the culture of an independent dept of justice, even tho it's organized as part of the executive (and quit trying to decide that it's politicized when it's not!). second, this means that the IG report began 4 months before the mueller probe. nobody was asking horowitz to wrap it up, to shut it down, and, unlike mueller, virtually all of horowitz's were easy to find and interview (as opposed to the person mueller would like to interview).

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Last edited by: Slowman: Jun 15, 18 16:26
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
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    I'm not out here screaming "ALL IS LOST!" or ready to "burn it down", just saying there's an erosion of trust, and if you don't see it, you disagree with plenty of people on both sides of the aisle. Here's a Time piece I referenced in another thread:
http://time.com/...-price/?xid=tcoshare
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I mentioned the IRS report, and here's a quick overview from NPR:
https://www.npr.org/...ector-general-report
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One thing the last of your post reminded me of is that I read that the IG is limited, when investigating, to employees withing his org, and that is where a special counsel is of value in having the greater reach to pretty much anyone. I think that's right anyway.
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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dave_w wrote:
I'm not out here screaming "ALL IS LOST!" or ready to "burn it down", just saying there's an erosion of trust, and if you don't see it, you disagree with plenty of people on both sides of the aisle. Here's a Time piece I referenced in another thread:
http://time.com/...-price/?xid=tcoshare
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I mentioned the IRS report, and here's a quick overview from NPR:
https://www.npr.org/...ector-general-report
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One thing the last of your post reminded me of is that I read that the IG is limited, when investigating, to employees withing his org, and that is where a special counsel is of value in having the greater reach to pretty much anyone. I think that's right anyway.

Sure there is an erosion of trust. Who has been constantly tearing at it over the last 18 months? The FBI are the good guys. Republicans used to know that.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [jwbeuk] [ In reply to ]
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jwbeuk wrote:
He put in a link



Kinda crappily (sorry, Dave).

This is how proper attribution is done:

I agree with this characterization by columnist Victor Hanson. [Chicago Tribune]

This way we get to read it in a more legible form with better typesetting (sorry, Slowman), we support the profession of journalism by providing clicks to the media organization who employs Victor, and attribution is apparent right away - we don't have to read to the bottom now knowing exactly what it is then get to a link at the bottom and you have to copy-and-paste in a separate browser tab before you can learn who the author is.
Last edited by: trail: Jun 15, 18 19:02
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [dave_w] [ In reply to ]
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That's fine. I'm fine if the FBI revises its policies and disciplines some personnel over this. Transparency is good, in general.

But I also wish the Trump White House would adhere to the recommendations from the Office of Government Ethics. Which have been broadly ignored (divestment, investigation recommendations) or subverted (waivers) by the Trump WH. It's been decided that those recommendations are anachronistic and/or unfair. And there's are no breathless claims that this erodes the trust and prestige of the White House.

It's a bad situation to be in to pick and choose which advise from independent watchdogs that you decide are valid, and those that are unfair based purely on political convenience.

I agree this is done on both sides. But if we're going to make this thread pro-government-oversight, let's be consistent about it.
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Re: FBI Agents, Employees, Attorneys Discuss Trump Voters After the Election (IG Report) [The GMAN] [ In reply to ]
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The GMAN wrote:
I don't think most people truly understand the butterfly effect that Loretta Lynch caused with the Bill Clinton tarmac meeting. That one meeting set into motion everything that happened after that. Comey does not, under any circumstances, hold that unprecedented July 2016 press conference if Lynch didn't do what she did. She really put him in a tough spot and did him no favors. We can hindsight question his decision making from July 5, 2016 on forward but he almost had to say what he said on July 5th because he felt there was now a perception that main DOJ and the AG was now in a conflict of interest area and they (DOJ) could not reputably make a decision on the Hilary matter... so he was going to make the decision. Well, that's not his job but he made it his job since he didn't think those whose job it was where capable of making the decisions. He was in uncharted waters. I'm not sure what he could or should have done differently. That's just my unofficial $.02.

Lots of great points in the above, and much to think about. Thanks for adding that two cents. :-)

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."
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