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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Kay Serrar] [ In reply to ]
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Kay Serrar wrote:
Perseus wrote:
My best guess is that the OP thinks killing unborn children empowers woman.



Troglodyte.

Read this.


98% of abortions in the US are elective. Less than 1% of abortions are performed to save the life of the mother. Dr. Alan Guttmacher of Planned Parenthood said "Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and, if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, life."
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
JSA wrote:
I'm struggling to determine to point being made by the OP. Is this a thread about abortion or the 2A? Or does he really believe the U.S. Constitution has never been ... damn, what's the word I'm looking for ... amend-something ...


No idea. My best guess is that the OP thinks killing unborn children empowers woman.

On another note, my wife and I had our 20 week ultrasound and we're having a girl.

Congratulations. I have shared my story of our 20 week ultrasound on this site before. Fortunately we had our at 18 weeks, found out that it was a boy. But also found out that the fetus wouldn't survive birth (thanatophoric skeletal dysplasia). Knowing that it would live up until the moment that the umbilical cord was cut, we chose early termination over having my wife carry for another 20 weeks in constant emotional pain. Glad we live in a country were we were empowered to make that choice. If we had the ultrasound 2 weeks later things would have been much more difficult thanks to laws around late term abortions.

I honestly don't know anyone who admits to having an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy, but I do know a number of people who have terminated wanted pregnancies that went wrong.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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I am sorry for your loss. My wife and I lost two pregnancies between our two boys. The losses were early (9-11 weeks) but that didn't diminish the pain or negate the health care my wife needed. Without question pregnancy can be a complex issue. Undeniably, the vast majority of abortions occur because someone does not want to be pregnant. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to take outlying issues and make them mainstream.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
JSA wrote:
scorpio516 wrote:
Re 18th amendment.

There is no "public" way to do it. The writers of the constitution thought the public was too stupid to be given the power. Only the superior beings of legislators have that power.
Either 357 Congresspeople OR 34 state legislatures have to start the process. Then 75% of the states have to ratify it.


What does Prohibition have to do with the OP?

Probably a good portion of unwanted pregnancies are alcohol-related.

You think? I know quite a few women who have had unwanted pregnancies. None were alcohol related. Generally failed birth control or lack thereof. I know that's n=1, would be interested to see some stats.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
Perseus wrote:
My best guess is that the OP thinks killing unborn children empowers woman.



Troglodyte.

Read this.


98% of abortions in the US are elective. Less than 1% of abortions are performed to save the life of the mother. Dr. Alan Guttmacher of Planned Parenthood said "Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer or leukemia, and, if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, life."

Really? Then why do maternal deaths in the US happen at significantly higher rates than in almost any other industrialized nation and why are they on the rise? What about the maternal death rate of black women in the US? https://www.nbcnews.com/...-black-women-n838166

The US’s maternal health statistics are terrible and currently getting worse. Women are stroking out and hemorrhaging in and after child birth and going to doctors and not being listened to.
https://www.propublica.org/...e-health-care-system
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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While sad and disheartening editorials do not change the facts.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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I am confused about the point you want to make. The stories you cite are women with wanted pregnancies who died during childbirth. Sometimes in rare cases these things happen despite all the right things being done. In those cases where they happen because of inadequate prenatal care or sub-standard care around childbirth the solution would seem to revolve around providing better care.

It should be a relatively rare situation where someone has to consider childbirth as a very high risk situation.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
I am sorry for your loss. My wife and I lost two pregnancies between our two boys. The losses were early (9-11 weeks) but that didn't diminish the pain or negate the health care my wife needed. Without question pregnancy can be a complex issue. Undeniably, the vast majority of abortions occur because someone does not want to be pregnant. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to take outlying issues and make them mainstream.

Until we reached an age where we and our friends were trying for children I simply had no idea how common miscarriages or problems conceiving are. Amongst friends close enough for me to be aware of their situation, it seems very much the exception rather than the norm for couples to have children without either a miscarriage or fertility issues along the way. I do think it would be helpful if there were more awareness about it, our first pregnancy didn't work out and at the time it felt like we were the only couple going through that pain, it was only hearing our story that made other friends share theirs and realise our experience wasn't that rare.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
trail wrote:
JSA wrote:
scorpio516 wrote:
Re 18th amendment.

There is no "public" way to do it. The writers of the constitution thought the public was too stupid to be given the power. Only the superior beings of legislators have that power.
Either 357 Congresspeople OR 34 state legislatures have to start the process. Then 75% of the states have to ratify it.


What does Prohibition have to do with the OP?


Probably a good portion of unwanted pregnancies are alcohol-related.


You think? I know quite a few women who have had unwanted pregnancies. None were alcohol related. Generally failed birth control or lack thereof. I know that's n=1, would be interested to see some stats.

Based on my N=1 I'd say that a "a good portion" is a reasonable estimate, though it's probably not a majority. And a fair bit of overlap between alcohol-related and failed or lacking birth control - when your inhibitions are lowered after drinking you're much more likely to make bad decisions like going ahead without birth control, taking somebody's word at face value that they've got birth control covered, or simply messing up whatever birth control you're using. I also know of at least a couple of pregnancies which came about due to alcohol-induced sickness which messed with the efficacy of the pill.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [len] [ In reply to ]
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len wrote:
I am confused about the point you want to make. The stories you cite are women with wanted pregnancies who died during childbirth. Sometimes in rare cases these things happen despite all the right things being done. In those cases where they happen because of inadequate prenatal care or sub-standard care around childbirth the solution would seem to revolve around providing better care.

It should be a relatively rare situation where someone has to consider childbirth as a very high risk situation.

The point I was trying to make was in relation to the quote that we can now get virtually any woman without a life threatening disease through pregnancy safely- which while not related to the original abortion debate- does not really seem true in our country. Many of these women had “top” care but basics were missed.

People act like birth is this walk in the park- and we seem to be making healthcare decisions based on it being statistically very safe- and as we make decisions based on it being statistically safe more and more women are slipping through the cracks and the statistics are going the wrong way. The maternal death rate in our country has doubled

Birth is a major medical event. While most women get through it fine it can go very, very wrong. This attitude that problems are very rare is killing women. As someone who was belittled by my doctors as having normal pregnancy pain and not taken seriously as my kidney was failing and had pain for years afterwards- yet would be classified as a normal uncomplicated birth in the happy statistics- we are doing a disservice to women when we assume all births will go fine.

You need to advocate for yourselves and your family as the patchwork system of medical response (since it really seems more like response to problems than actual care) in this country does not seem to care much beyond limiting legal liability and making a buck. Yes there are doctors that are exceptions- but very rare these days where many obs use rota schedules where you rarely see the same doctor at subsequent appointments and they generally act like they have never read your chart before popping into the exam room to check fetal heart rate and send you on your way for their next appointment in fifteen minutes.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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Your point about pregnancy is true. I am in Ontario and we brought in mid-wives here with little thought to safety. It was what a segment of the public wanted so they got it. They were not well integrated into the system. There were other aspects of the situation which made for less safety.

The other thing I see in my underserviced area (there are lots of those even in the United States) is obs/gyns who are very stressed and as such very difficult to make the best decisions. I have seen a few of them have meltdowns right on the job. Residency isn't as hard as it used to be and I wonder if some people make it through who are not up to the challenge. Twenty years ago at my hospital we only had 2 ob/gyns for a catchment area of 100K people. They could be cranky but always seemed to be on point. We now have 4-5 and I am not convinced we are safer.

Payment models give very little consideration for best outcomes as well. The on call models were a response to the extreme stress of being on call all the time but certainly don't make for happy moms. What is the point of choosing your ob/gyn if it is a crapshoot if they will even deliver your baby? It should be a given that you see the same ob for most of your prenatal visits though.

They constantly try to escape from the darkness outside and within
Dreaming of systems so perfect that no one will need to be good T.S. Eliot

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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Moonrocket] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder how much of the maternal death rate is down to one or both of:
- Women having babies increasingly late in life. The average age of first time mothers goes steadily up which is generally a good thing as it's down to more women getting degrees, having careers, etc. But within those numbers is a very high increase in the numbers of women having babies in their 40s or even 50s, something which simply wasn't possible before advances in fertility treatment over the last few decades. Lots of risk factors associated with pregnancy go up with age.
- Increasing numbers of elective caesareans. C section rate in USA is something like 33% vs the WHO recommendation of 10-15%. Obviously c sections should absolutely be used in cases where there are medical complications which make regular birth risky, but in cases where there's no medical complication then choosing to be put under a general anaesthetic and cut open must raise the risk level

There certainly seem to be plenty of candidates other than abortion (or lack of abortion) to explain changes in maternal death rates.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I honestly don't know anyone who admits to having an abortion for an unwanted pregnancy,

Me, as a senior in high school. And I don’t regret it for one minute.

I do find it rather amusing that a bunch of men are discussing what a woman does with her body. Typical.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [Perseus] [ In reply to ]
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Perseus wrote:
I am sorry for your loss. My wife and I lost two pregnancies between our two boys. The losses were early (9-11 weeks) but that didn't diminish the pain or negate the health care my wife needed. Without question pregnancy can be a complex issue. Undeniably, the vast majority of abortions occur because someone does not want to be pregnant. What rubs me the wrong way is when people try to take outlying issues and make them mainstream.
There is a problem for such a major policy debate that there are very few statistics. I would agree that the majority of abortions are unwanted pregnancies, but I suspect that things even out starting around 12 weeks. I suspect, but have no evidence, that the majority of late term abortions are wanted pregnancies. You do hear about the rare case of someone how doesn't know they are pregnant until they are months in, but I think those are the outliers. After 12 weeks you are looking at issues with the health of the fetus or mother, not the whoops something went wrong with my birth control. And yet, in this country that is when it starts to get much more challenging to have abortions performed. So I would say that the argument against late term abortions are taking outlying issues and making them mainstream.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [ironclm] [ In reply to ]
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The problem is that it is such a socially taboo subject that no one talks about it. Even as mentioned earlier, the challenges with conceiving and miscarriages. Like mental health problems, we would all probably be better off if we would talk more freely.
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Re: If Ireland Can Do It.... [torrey] [ In reply to ]
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torrey wrote:
The problem is that it is such a socially taboo subject that no one talks about it. Even as mentioned earlier, the challenges with conceiving and miscarriages. Like mental health problems, we would all probably be better off if we would talk more freely.

True.

clm
Nashville, TN
https://twitter.com/ironclm | http://ironclm.typepad.com
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