tetonrider wrote:
FindinFreestyle wrote:
So many of these protour guys simply assume a large power drop is unavoidable on their time trial bikes
Guessing you have not worked with many ITT specialized on the World Tour.
Power drop? ...
Hell of a guess. Since there are very few of those riders worldwide and they generally work within their team structure, no. To be clear, I've worked with zero of them. Feel free to elaborate as to why this disqualifies me from having an opinion.
My background is a a FIST and Retul certified fitter since 2007. I've done over 3000 fits at this point, half with adjustable cranks. Plenty of pro tri, some domestic pro time trialists. Plenty of riders over 400 watts at FTP. I've been to the tunnel a handful of times but try to pay attention anytime anyone reports anything from the tunnel. I'm a student.
I've been observing how world class time trialists ride for over a decade, and listening to guys like Jim, and anyone else who has worked with them to form my opinions. I am also very willing to change my opinions.
Please forgive me if I sounded certain about Martin on short cranks or Yates or anything else. I am always trying to learn. I still think many of these anterior rotated (UCI ITT) riders would be better off shortening the cranks and rotating the body. I hear what Jim is saying, but Jim is primarily a fitter and I am primarily a coach who happens to be a very good fitter. I've seen, experienced personally, and worked with many riders through the adaption period.
So why do I think these riders accept power drops in TT positions? Plentiful anecdote. Why do you think that is as not the case? I would love to see or hear about some data to indicate they do not, on average, lose significant power in their time trial positions. Personally, even riding 30+ hours weekly, even with FTP of 450, even with all the micro differences between them and age group triathletes, I still find them the same in the macro. Forward rotation is generally good, generally works, and I consider it the "Fosbury Flop" of aerobar riding. So from that premise, I require some new data, experience, or reasoning to convince me that forward rotation is not correct for the fastest aerobar riders in the world. Jim's explanation is intriguing, but I'm not calling that a mic drop moment by any stretch.
Questions for Jim or anyone else:
1. How do you determine anterior from posterior tilt? This is not a black or white proposition. There are many degrees of rotation between all the way back and all the way forward.
2. How do you tell who should rotate how much? What are the mitigating factors? FTP? Weekly volume? Frequency on tt bike? Foot size?
3. How long do you attempt to rotate a rider forward before drawing the conclusion that this rider is better off rotated back?
In other words, whats the process? Try em all forward and if they suck after a year, roll em back?
Jim's testimony is intriguing, even somewhat compelling, but for me it is by no means definitive. I am not trashing my opinions just yet. Riding 31mph on 410 watts is freiking fantastic right? Except if you do that rotated back on your long cranks with 4cm less aerobar drop you could otherwise ride, and your FTP is actually 445, it becomes less fantastic in my mind.
And then for Jim.... "Yates is dialed" and "Of course I'd love to see him try shorter cranks". Those two statements could use some clearing up. If he's dialed, what about his position makes you want to see him on shorter cranks? Maybe the probable 120 degrees (edited from 60) of flexion at the top of the stroke?
