Thanks for chipping in Monty, to a non swimmer who likes to be apply a bit of thought (but not too much ;-) ) to things that makes far more sense than trying to smooth it out for choppy OW.

The above bit I have quoted though - are you saying that some top swimmers are pulling through under the water with a straight not a bent arm? My basic understanding - keeping it general rather than debating minutiae - is that that is a cardinal error, utilising energy for upward lift not forward propulsion, and that a bent arm (the more bent the better within reason) was biomechanically most efficient.

[quote]You are the fastest at that point because: (1) you just finished the most powerful part of your pull -- the front portion. and, (2) you are in the most streamlined position within the stroke cycle[/quote]

Don't forget you should also be accelerating the velocity of the hand through this portion of the stroke. Something I'd peg that 80+% of triathletes don't do unless they grew up swimming

Swimmers = accelerate through the stroke
majority of triathletes = same velocity front to back

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Brian Stover USAT LII
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the "straight arm" pull that monty refers to isn't purely straight, the same fundamentals are present at the catch phase at the front of the stroke. These guys are just really 'effin strong and so can pull deeper, catching more water for more propulsion. But there's a limit to how long you can do that for.

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I laughed when I read this. It's me exactly. I've spent the last year working on my lowering head position and "swimming downhill". The other day the local Y coach, who is kind enough to give me tips from time to time, told me my head is too low now. He said the low head position probably is giving me a false sense of speed because of the rush of water I feel over my head/neck, but it's also slowing me down. That feeling is exactly how I feel when I swim at times. No doubt this guy knows his stuff.

When you invent the invisible fins, I'll pay dearly for them.

Check out this link from his blog

http://blog.trisutto.com/category/swimming/


My method of trying to get her to ‘buy in’ to the new technique is to sell her the results of Nicola Spirig. I have changed Nicola’s stroke many times over the years, from the most ‘technically correct’ six beat, high elbow, bi-lateral breather which was beautiful to watch; into the straight armed, no kick whirlwind seen at the last Olympics. That stroke allowed her between two Olympics to go from 1 minute 10 seconds behind the leaders in a wetsuit swim, to being in the front swim pack in Rio, in a non wetsuit swim. This was the key to her Rio Olympic Silver medal.


However, here is the point I want to make. Even after her success, Nicola still pines for her old swim stroke!! As we now make another change in swim technique for the Tokyo games, which will be her fifth Olympics, I still hear on a daily basis ‘I used to swim 50m and 100m so much faster. People used to complement me on my stroke, now they laugh at it.’


I will add that Daniela Ryf, now 3x Hawaii Ironman World Champion, was also given a new swim stroke when she joined. Yet she too, despite such success wants to keep changing back from her 2 beat to her 6 beat kick, as ‘I’m so much faster swimming with 6 beat‘; It makes me sick to my stomach when she keeps adding swim drills, and other things into her swim workouts, which only serve to hinder her progress.

There's a whole lot in between the 2 extremes Sutton lays out there. esp. wrt kick pattern. No-one is calling for 6-beat kick as the "ideal" for distance swimmers, so I'm not really sure why he thinks that is "most technically correct"?

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Desert Dude, that is good stuff. I have no idea if I accelerate - definitely will check now.

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Aaron Bales
Lansing Triathlon Team

thanks for the reminder. I think I was falling into camp 2 other than for backstroke! It's like throwing a ball....no one does it at constant hand velocity (its kind of impossible)!

Yes, but it's not like throwing a ball. Throwing a ball you only have to care about your final overall fingertip velocity and the ball takes care of itself. Among other differences, it's harder to hold on to the water than it is to hold on to a ball. You've got to worry about jerky movements or jerky acceleration -- those mean you've lost the water and you've lost your force and speed. Your arm can be very "whippy" throwing a ball. I think that's a mistake when swimming.

Be wary of anyone who is trying to sell a packaged system or certification process in triathlon. It's usually there for marketing purposes for coaches/athletes who don't have a lot of experience and want to appear qualified, but in no way gets them even close to being qualified.

Speaking specifically about this, he's come up with a system based on his experience coaching triathletes and triathletes who might have come to swimming later in life. I understand the trade-offs he's making with the stroke. I've had to deal with them too. I don't agree with a lot of the solutions he's come up with to overcome some of these hurdles. In my experience, it's very dependent on the athlete. Some of the trade-offs he's making present obstacles to getting faster or being more efficient down the road. For some pros and really good age groupers that can equate to the ability to make the front pack or not. That's been my experience with the "open water triathlon" stroke as I understand it and have seen it applied.

Hope this helps.

Tim

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A few of his statements seem odd to me. Why would you dictate a slower technique to an athlete, rather than say "use the fastest way, but pace yourself to save the energy". Faster is faster.

I'm not a world famous genius coach though....

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You can go pretty fast. For outright beginners, they are often faster when doing the F&P drill than their actual full stroke swimming. This isn't to say that they should do the F&P forever, but it certainly helps us work on force generation, opposition swimming, breath timing and lends itself to "meta drilling" where we take that torso driven opposition style of pulling and morph it into full stroke swimming wit well timed kicking.

The type of Float and Paddle hybrid can be a very effective one size fits all adult onset swimmers solution, if you believe in that stuff. I don't. I think successful open water swimmers can be catch up style slow turnover 6 beat kickers. Or anywhere in between that style and Janet Evens. So F&P is a tool in the box that can often resemble a final form, but really just teaches some components parts

As a coach, you should put some constraints in place but ultimately give the athlete enough room to discover and think about what works best for them.

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I am not going to promote him ad infinitum but his ideas have worked for me

are you saying that some top swimmers are pulling through under the water with a straight not a bent arm?//

Yes, but it is top sprinters, not distance guys. For a short period of time and for a very strong swimmer, they can generate more speed with more of a straight arm pull than a bent elbow one. The old French guy that held the WR in the 100 swam most of his race like that, and you see a lot of guys in the last 15 meters switch to it. I even saw Phelps using it at the end of his career in the 100 free for the last 5 or 6 strokes..So it is a thing, but not for us to worry about. I only brought it up to highlight that things are a changing in swimming, and what was taught in my day is changing all over the place. And now what was taught 10 years ago is changing again, so things are not set in stone, at least not yet..

Phelps borrowed the idea from Michael klim, he also finished with dolphin kick on the last few no-breath strokes into the wall.

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thank you

Hey Jason,
we have respectfully disagreed on this forum before and so we shall again now. while a bent elbow might get the 'hand' out front quicker (debatable but ill go with it) the potential of generating foward movement from the weighted throw of the entire arm (not just hand) is lost and any weight being used a throw is cut in half if that elbow is bent (past functionality).

And I disagree again. Why we have accepted that what happens with the hand in the water is the most crucial is, while somewhat understandable, is a paradigm that def needs challenging.

daved

You don't generate forward momentum from throwing the arm forward though. Conservation of momentum principle at work. The only thing that truly matters is what happens underwater, with the caveat that there are things that happen above the water that can influence things below the waterline.

Look at commonalities of great swimmers. They diverge quite a bit above the waterline, but underwater they are more similar than different. To me, that's a big clue as to where the important details lie.

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Side note, wasn’t the straight pull in the last 15 or so meters as much for a better wall touch?

Forget which free event but I saw this in the commonwealth games where the athlete switched at the last 10m and was able to “throw” the arm and out touch the others for gold.

Honest question.

Thanks,
Maurice

Pretty much. It uses a ton of energy (I've tried it in the 100 and last about 5-8 m before I can feel my turnover slow down) so it's really only useful for very short bursts, like after you take your last breath in the 100.

You're sacrificing streamlining for power.

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Entering thumb first is a great way to blow your shoulders.. A great drill to prevent this is the Pinky Drill.. Where you enter with your pinky first then continue your catch normally.. 2nd best way to blow the shoulders is to pull inwards instead of straight down or the classic S motion. happy training!