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Re: Please help me ride faster [tridoc3] [ In reply to ]
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tridoc3 wrote:
Another consideration, is that a triathlon TT is not a cycling TT. You can crush the bike only to have a horrible run. The best ride is in function of solid run.
Why don’t you start riding pure TT’s to learn the how how to dose your effort.
Also, a 70.3 on 140.6’s are not real TT efforts. They are long steady rides.

Yep, I get that and agree. This is going to sound weird, but my issue here is not being able to over bike. I'd like to be able to ride at 90%ftp in a race if I so choose. I just can't seem to do that.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Sounds like you are paying attention to all the key metrics, curious if you've ever worked with a coach or would consider hiring one for a season?

Ps. I am not a coach.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
I would focus on one thing at a time. Swimming a 32 in a half and not being in good shape is going to have a big effect on your bike time.

I never do swim/bike bricks, but for that long of a race if you’re not in good swim shape you want to be swimming it easy/moderate. It’s hard to swim Easy if you’re swimming 32 mins. Not judging I’ve been that speed in oly distance before, But you’re using a ton of energy to just get to the bike.

The fact that your NP for both half’s is relatively close makes me think you’re pacing fine your legs just are drained prior to getting to there.

Other idea are you taking a bunch of caffeine training but not racing? Or doing something different on the nutrition front.

If you have an actual FTP of 300 and you are having issues hitting 230 for that long something is wonky.

What distance time trials are you doing?

I was swimming easy/moderate. For sure, no question.

We have a weekly training TT that I have done several times on my road bike and on my TT bike. Fairly hilly (big up/down, flat around the lake, big up/down). 14.4 miles. Usually finish with NP in the mid 240s and feeling wrecked, independent of the bike.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [SteveM] [ In reply to ]
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SteveM wrote:
CCF wrote:
. I know that those 'plans' I make with best bike split having me putting out much more power on the descents that I do/can, but I wasn't thinking that would make a 10 minute difference in my actual race time.


I'm running into similar issues, I'm pretty much always under target power for a race & it seems to be more pronounced on hillier courses.

The BBS course simulations expect that I can put out >80% FTP on the downhills when traveling over 33mph, but with a 52x11 I'd need to spin over 90rpm to push anything at that speed...

Whilst I only spent 6% of my last race over 33mph there's all the time after those segments where BBS is expecting I can push significant power where I simply can't (without more gearing).

The last trainerroad podcast had a segment on hilly courses & from what I remember they lent towards a higher VI & more coasting being a better plan.

However whilst I can make up some of the deficit by going harder on the uphills, it's a different physical demand from the course simulation/training.

Yeah, they definitely do appear to 'require' you to hammer down every hill to ride a close to the plan as possible.

That being the case, I made a new BBS model for the St.G race. Rather than a 'goal NP' model I used a 'goal TSS' model and input my actual TSS from the ride. Then I adjusted the maximum speed down until the result lined up with my actual power/VI. That max speed ended up being 30mph (my actual max speed in the race was 41.8). So I was effectively racing as if I had a 30mph speed limit. That doesn't make me feel great, but it's a good piece of data. Changing that 30 to 32 netted me 3 minutes, and bumping it up to 35 got me four and a half.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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If you’re doing a 14.4 mile TT and you’re wrecked at 240ish watts, your FTP is not 300.

I just did a 30 ish mile ride on Sunday with a NP at 221. I was fine after the ride and my FTP is no where near 300.

240-250 watts normalized for 15 miles, with an FTP of 300. Should be a boring training ride.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
If you’re doing a 14.4 mile TT and you’re wrecked at 240ish watts, your FTP is not 300.

I just did a 30 ish mile ride on Sunday with a NP at 221. I was fine after the ride and my FTP is no where near 300.

240-250 watts normalized for 15 miles, with an FTP of 300. Should be a boring training ride.

Pretty much this, your ftp is a pipe dream if you can’t get close to it for 14 miles. I do all my training on a trainer and trainer road ftp is set at 260w, i did 270w for a 20k tt. For a 22k tt you should be at 300w or maybe higher.
95% of my training was done on a road bike, pretty much just got the tri bike out for the race.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Well, when your FTP is a result of a 20 min test, riding at 90% of FTP for an extended period of time is a different type of number, in my opinion. I believe that most ameteur cyclist don’t have the endurance to consistently translate that number to a prolonged effort. When I do multiple 20 min sets at a FTP effort, I see my power degradation, which gives me a better sense of a real world FTP. Also, many triathletes train at a steady ftp effort, but do not develop higher end power. Consequently, higher efforts zap the legs. That’s why triathletes get easily dropped from group rides with a few surges. Personally, I need to have my high end systems ready to perform at my ftp. Just training at my ftp has given me some of my most disappointing performances.
Like I said before, you need to ride a few TT’s to get a feel for the effort.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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CCF wrote:
jsmith82 wrote:
Are you coasting the descents or hammering down them until you're spinning out the big gear? Why I ask, if you're spinning it out climbing up trying to keep your AP low for your NP % goal (which is a good thing) but you're getting up to 25-30mph on the down side then coasting, theoretically you're coasting earlier than you should, so you have a longer "powerless" segment in your ride, which could be skewing your numbers.

I mention mph on the downhill and not a power % because it seems a lot of AG's don't stop pedaling on downhills because they have spun out the 11 tooth cog and are now in a scenario to tuck low and aero, they are starting to go fast and stop pedaling because fast can be scary, or they are very eager for a break after the climb.


Yep, I think this may be the winner here. I rarely hammer until I spin out the 53/11, usually opting to rest. For that reason, I rarely look at AP, and I think that having a VI close to 1.0 on a hilly course is really not the best way to ride it. I'm not really concerned with having power lower than my goal per se, what I'm actually concerned with is having my overall speed so much less, losing 10 minutes to my goal time. I know that those 'plans' I make with best bike split having me putting out much more power on the descents that I do/can, but I wasn't thinking that would make a 10 minute difference in my actual race time.

What's the right way to combat this? Go harder than planned on flats and climbs and then rest on the descent?


Hi CCF. So I am not going to say my advice is right, or is wrong, but it is how I was taught to manage my power on a course.

The idea is we "level" a hilly course in power metrics by staying as close to our normalized power goal as possible, right? This is my opinion, but I feel I see more people coast early on a decline then they actually should, be it they want a break for the legs or once they hit 30mph they go from pedal to death grip because fast can be scary. Everyone though has a point where they max their 50+/11 out without blowing up their power and you're not gaining any more speed, this in my opinion is where you've earned your coast, and if you're properly managing your power going up the average joe hill, you shouldn't need to have a break because your legs are hitting the goal you intended.

So the attached image below demonstrates what I am talking about, for the sake of example we're going to say our power goal is 50 watts. On the flats we're hitting 50 no brainer, but let's say on the climb up the hill we gear it out and manage to average 75 watts climbing. 50% over power goal is high IMO, but again, for sake of example. Now comes the downhill. On top you have your coaster, they average a few watts going down then let it ride for the decline. Below that, you have your number junky who immediately is back to 50 watts on the crest and gears out to the 11 before coasting the last section seeing as they are no longer adding any speed and have maxed their gear capacity. Last, you're back to the flats and we're back to 50 watts easy.

The attack strategy of example 1 gets you an average of 44.6 watts. The attack strategy of example 2 averages 50. Strategy 1 gives you a longer break, slower descent and less momentum to carry into the flat. Strategy 2 adheres to your power goal and if properly assessed and managed, you have just crushed strategy 1 with your descent as well as the extra momentum you carried into the flats, and you did it without blowing up your legs. Likewise you stuck to your power goal which revolves around what you CAN do on a bike course to exit with good run legs, so strategy 1 will not be running you down on foot in a normal scenario, depending your run fitness.





Regards,
J. Smith
Last edited by: jsmith82: May 8, 18 10:37
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Re: Please help me ride faster [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
If you’re doing a 14.4 mile TT and you’re wrecked at 240ish watts, your FTP is not 300.

I just did a 30 ish mile ride on Sunday with a NP at 221. I was fine after the ride and my FTP is no where near 300.

240-250 watts normalized for 15 miles, with an FTP of 300. Should be a boring training ride.


Pretty much this, your ftp is a pipe dream if you can’t get close to it for 14 miles. I do all my training on a trainer and trainer road ftp is set at 260w, i did 270w for a 20k tt. For a 22k tt you should be at 300w or maybe higher.
95% of my training was done on a road bike, pretty much just got the tri bike out for the race.

Yep, point well taken. Perhaps I should rephrase my original question as something like this:

Given that I can perform a variety of works indoors that indicate a 300 watt FTP, how can I raise my numbers outdoors, if we assume that it's not a type of bike nor bike fit issue? How can I get to 290+ watts for 30+ minutes on the road?

Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, I'm enjoying it. I hope others are as well.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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I don’t use trainerroad so you’ll have to work with me on this one. What workouts are you doing that indicate you should be be at a 300 FTP?

My problem with the information that you’ve given is that you’re not even close to a 300ftp. There may a difference from inside to outside but no one is 25-30 percent below their FTP riding outside vs inside.

I feel like something is wrong with how is power is reading and calculating through trainerroad.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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A great coach, who happens to be on this forum, was asked by an athlete how to get faster on the bike? He answered "pedal faster". Too many triathletes soft pedal and coast. Ride a fixed gear bike. Yea, for hills too.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Not sure if this has been covered- what device is measuring your inside power, and is that the same outside?
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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Just go out and try harder, i know i can sustain a much higher heart rate outdoors than indoors. Go do a short tt and set off at 300w+, if you’re doing trainer road workouts at that power you can do it outdoors.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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this thread has kinda meandered a bit, but the answer to your OP has been correctly given. To hit a certain NP for a hilly race, you're gonna have to be quite a bit over that number when climbing as you're not going to be at that number going downhill most of the time. It's a pacing strategy issue, not a power ability issue.

If in addition you don't think you can ride tempo per what you should be able to according to your FTP, that's simple. Go out and ride continuously at 85%. Start with 3x20' then 2x30' then 45' straight, then 1 hour straight. work your way up to 2 hrs straight.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [Sean H] [ In reply to ]
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Sean H wrote:
It's a pacing strategy issue, not a power ability issue.

I'm not sure, I think it's both.

If we accept the premise that the optimum strategy on hilly courses is a higher VI then you need the ability to handle that.

i.e. In much the same way that extending 20-min tested FTP to an hour takes some work, working significantly above FTP and then coasting is a different demand.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:
Just go out and try harder, i know i can sustain a much higher heart rate outdoors than indoors. Go do a short tt and set off at 300w+, if you’re doing trainer road workouts at that power you can do it outdoors.

Yeah, that's one of the realizations I'm coming to. I think I thought (funny phrase) that, for example, 300 watts for 20 mins should feel the same, and be the same difficulty, indoors and out. That was probably naive (that's okay, I've been called worse). Just go out and try harder. Endurance sports are simple sometimes, huh?

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.
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Re: Please help me ride faster [CCF] [ In reply to ]
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It sounds simple and stupid, but sometimes you have to grit your teeth and just get on with it. When i did a tt i was aiming for 250w, went out at 270w and thought “shit, I can’t back out 10k in”.

On the trainer I’ll struggle to hit 170bpm max, 20k tt on the road i averaged 185bpm, you just have to have faith that your legs can take it and forget about your breathing. I assume you’d be doing decent length intervals at 320w or so on trainer road, so you know your legs can do it.

In tri’s i think it’s a bit different, you have the swim and that fear in the back of mind that you have to run.
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