Mostly, but not entirely. Like I said, I want the option to over bike. I don't want to use the option, but I want it available.

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Any run that doesn't include pooping in someone's front yard is a win.

Hey Steve, what would you recommend for somebody who DOES have a strong base and who is frequently posting the fastest run split of the day? Are they also candidates for more volume more volume more volume?! How would one see any progress on the bike if they are constantly pounding their legs running day in and day out? This is the first year I've stepped away from this kind of training and I've finally begun to get over my previous plateau in running and biking as a result. Am I just an anomaly?

Progress 2018 vs 2017
LT Pace -10s Run
FTP +9W Bike
CSS Pace -7s Swim

I keep the 80/20 ratio for my running but I don't fill in my calendar with mileage any longer. I'm genuinely asking as I know you have great insights and experience.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Hey Steve, what would you recommend for somebody who DOES have a strong base and who is frequently posting the fastest run split of the day?


Assuming great run fitness and that you are posting faster if not the fastest run splits in races, what I would do here is have a look at your competition and see how much ground you are losing to them on the swim/bike. Knowing this, you would then develop a game plan to elevate swim/bike fitness performance - so your deficient is less.

Swimming/cycling are like any endurance sport - more is more, and the more volume you put on, the deeper your base and overall fitness. The good news with swimming/cycling, is you can usually ramp things up much quicker, with little down-side. I just came out of my winter hibernation of cycling - 3 weekly hard sessions on the trainer through the winter - on a trip to Cuba where we rode 100km/day for a week!! I was gassed at the end of the week, but you could NOT do something like this with running!

Ounce established, after a number of years of running focus, high level running performance in the context of triathlon can be maintained with less overall volume and 3 - 4 focused and specific sessions of running/week.

Note that gains can come in swim/bike not just from time (going faster), but also taking less energy and less out of you, if you are still finishing in the same time! That's still a win!

Ultimately competitive races, regardless of the race distance in triathlon, almost always come down to the run.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

what you are saying is that at some point your effort on the bike, currently, has a binary effect on your run. too low, all good, too high, all shit?

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36 kona qualifiers 2006-'23 - 3 Kona Podiums - 4 OA IM AG wins - 5 IM AG wins - 18 70.3 AG wins
I ka nana no a 'ike -- by observing, one learns | Kulia i ka nu'u -- strive for excellence
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5th day of eccentric exercises. NO run since saturday (except for the 400 meters attempt 2 days ago). Foam rolling calves every day and still bikeing e and swimming.

Tendom seems better now, no pain if a push it with my fingers and no pain even in the first steps in the morning (but as i said, 'pain' is not the right word). Some guys and some PT on internet told me to not stop running but only to reduce volumes but, since races are still far away, i won't run this week and part of the next.

Glad to hear it. Feeling better is what you want. Sounds like you will be back to running in no time! Nice.


I'm also just "some guy" on the internet, who is only relaying my own personal experience with running related connective tissue injury management. I am NOT claiming that my way is the only way. Its just what has worked for me. The "keep running" approach (even at reduced volume) has NEVER worked for me. At best, I just don't get better and the problem just lingers as a nagging thing in the background.

Sorry Tom but the first time i've read your post i've not paid enough attention to the above part.

But with BarryP program how could i build a 30km long run? if the program is 3-2-1 the long run is 3/10 of total volume this. i suppose something like 3x6km (or 2x if i have to skip a session), 2x12km and 1x18km. this is a 60km weekly volume that in my case would be enough for an IM .
I'm one of those guys who think that is not important the single session, or better, is more important a good weekly volume so do i really need a long run of 30 km for an IM if i hit the 60km weekly volume?

your pace is in the ball park as mine so here is what Ive been doing. Ive been on the Barryp plan for a little over a year with the exeption of about 2 months or so when irma blew through.
I dont remember what the recommended time was for each session except for the short (15min).I began at 9:40 pace and would pick it up 4-5 seconds at every 10 min mark.
This is where I am currently
Short 26 min . start @ 8:56 pace ( I do these as a bric after cycling so Im primed up and can start at a faster pace than normal.
Medium 41 min .start @ 9:40 pick up 4-5 seconds every 10 min.
Long 58 min @ 9:40 pick up 4-5 seconds every 10 min.
Im 43 and watch my hr , I keep it between 145-151 (thats easy z2 for me)
I add 2-3 min to my runs anywere between 2-4 weeks .
After about 6 months I started making one of my medium runs tempo after a good warmup and sprint the last mile.
Thats also around the time I started doing my short runs as bricks.
Im a sprint tri guy only and my 5k pace in a sprint tri is down to 7:15 and in a straight up 5k its in the 6:45 range.
Before barry it was mid to upper 8min range with a slow start off the bike.
All my runs are on a treadmill except for my med tempo run.
Before barry I was running 3days a week vo2max , tempo, strides etc... my knees got thrashed and didnt progress much.
Now I can run and run and Im injury free and never sore.
Also a 13.1 before barry 2hrs flat
8 months after barry 1:45 on a course that was a bit long.

so i’ve started the plan.

previous i was running prob 3 times a week, one was a long day half marathon that i would try to run race pace, one was a good tempo run for 6 or 7 miles, the other would be a interval session for 6 or 7.

now i’m doing a 9:15 pace for all the 6 runs except my long run (9 miles) which i had to slow down to around a 9:30 to keep my hr in the lower 140s. that’s still prob high for the plan but really i’m not sure i could handle running much slower than that.

one thing i really like about this plan is it’s easier on my joints. i’m 37 and def want to progress my run, but not at the sacrifice of my knees long term. i’m excited to get through the base build and onto build and see how my pace progresses.

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

Last year, I found that something magic really begins to happen once you get into the 30-35mpw (30/60/90 min or 3.5/7/10.5mile) range. My "easy pace" really began to tumble once I was doing 3 runs a week around an hour+. Up until that point I spend "months" running around 8:45 at 152 bpm without much change. But, once the long run crossed the 10 mile mark, and the med run started pushing 60minutes...the pace rapidly dropped into the 8:0x range in a matter of about 4 weeks. One week it was 8:45, then 8:35, then 8:25...etc. Every week, I would just sort of check the watch in "disbelief" mid run.

that’s so awesome!

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

See the post earlier in this thread:

https://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ost=6626995#p6626995

Note that post is listing MILES not KM.

Basically, you extend JUST the long run every other week (by 2-3km) beyond the 21 km. So...21, 23, 21, 25, 21, 27, 21, 30....all other runs remain in the 6k/12k range.

Also, my post that follows Sean H's post gives you the link to BarryP's original description. Barry also talks about how to manage this style of run-volume in the context of all-3-sports and IM volume. For example, when you can cut out days, or reduce volume without much impact, benefits/drawbacks of splitting long runs, etc. There's lots of good info to be gleaned from reading Barry's original words.

I'm not in a position to advise you on the effectiveness of NOT doing a long run for IM training. I race Oly distance exclusively---so, my personal experience is in that context.

My Oly run plan is built around 7k/14k/21k. But, I don't have many schedule constraints. I can train 3x per day (morning, lunch, evening) when needed without many conflicts to work around. I usually only have to do that twice a week (Tue / Sat), and I limit the run to a short (7k) on those days.

u r right. i ve read another 2 times barryp post. what i've to manage is weekly volume to avoid injuries (at the moment i really don't know if my tendon will let me run even if the 2 weeks of stop are near the end).

Last year splittin the long run was succesfull for me, no problems with my (poor) weekly volume for the IM (about 50km/week ). it was an easy run, a medium run a long splitted run (30 km max).

Now i ve to understand 2 things:

1) what's happen to my tendon, i really don't know why this injury s happend because weekly volume was still low and i ve reached that volume in a very conservative way (40km weekly in about 5 months). so maybe was my fast run with not enough warm up or not enough cool down (sometimes i skip cool down).


2) how to increase weekly volume avoidin 'dangerous' session. in my intention a good week could be something like 2x6km + 2x12km + 1x18km. that 54km/week with another (optional) easy 6k km (so 60km week) but if i transform the long run in a 30km run that week could kill me (66km run per week for me it's dangerous).

My goal si something like a 4h IM marathon, at the moment i run 20km (before my injury) ad about 5'15 per kilometers in Z2.

i

just an update ...need some help.. :(

i've started as u wrote me...some short sessions of 3.5 (sometimes 4 ) km.
At the moment i don't think that my injury is a tendinitis or tendinosis...it's not only that at least.

i've had problem with my achille's tendon more than one time...my right one has a tendinosis that i monitor with an eco every year ..and it did not get worse even if i train for Ironmans.

The other legs is the one with the injury...but there is something different for me. the pain (that is really light...) remain for all the 3 or 4 (even 5) kilometers and it is located in the external part of the leg...like in the peroneus tendon zone. Every tendinitis i've had in the last few years, even the worst ones, bothered me only for some meters (not more than 500/700 meters...few minutes..). this one remains.

i add that sometimes i feel the same little pain when i ride or when i push to the wall in the swimming pool...

i'll do an eco as soon as possibile. i don't know if i can run on it. as i said..it doesn't hurt a lot duriing the run, it doesn't hurt after the run...or in the first steps in the morning. there is no pain when i touch it..i only fell a little pain in the achilles tendon

i am 200% a believer in this run plan at this point.

logging lots of easy miles and making sure to get my mileage in every week (im averaging 33 miles a week right now) my heart rate has dropped considerably when on the treadmill. my recovery runs would end in the mid 140s with no other activities before my run.

today after being on the bike for an easy 30 minute spin, my recovery run ended at 134. im excited to see how much i progress down the road. (pun intended)

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

I realize this is a bit of an older thread, but I have just now started on this and was wondering how to approach hilly runs. I live in a place where there's very few flat stretches, it's either rolling hills or nasty climbs. Should I instead look at my average HR for the run (I assume no?) or slow down to a pace where I consistently stay in Z2 in which case I'd be dangerously close to walking at times as I'm not a fast runner (4:55/km normally but sitting at around 6:00/km now to stay in Z2).

I like it as my legs feel much better the following day, but man it's a challenge to slow it down!

i think in that situation when youre on a climb it would be best to swap over from pace and keep an eye on your HR. there will be a delay in your HR of course, but that would be the metric you could look at.

as a point of reference the last 70.3 i did (waco tx) there is a horrendous climb you make on the two loop course. its nothing like ive ever tried to "run" as i run in the flatlands of texas all the time. i actually watched a lot of people walking so i swallowed my pride, swapped my watch over to look at my power metric i NEVER use for my stryd pod and tried to use that. it was pretty helpful and i did wind up walk/jogging the worst part of the climb. had i not i think i would have blown up.

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80/20 Endurance Ambassador

Easy is a feeling! Go as slow as you need to to maintain that feeling. I've got some gnarly terrain where I live, including a spot where it's more or less a continuous climb for about 2 miles, and I've got no shame in going 9min/mi if I have to in order to keep it easy (FWIW - I'd be looking to run 2:47-2:48 in a marathon, so that's a full 2.5min or so over MP).

When you're out on an easy run, ask yourself if you could do exactly what you're doing today again tomorrow and the next day without being tired, burnt, or having to slow down. If the answer is yes, you're good!

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"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"

I second this -- keep it feeling easy and you should be OK -- that will mean slowing down on uphills some and speeding up a little on downhills.

In my opinion, it's not really a problem if your average heart rate on an easy run is in Z2 but you have a number of spikes to Z3 or even Z4 associated with short climbs. This can still physiologically be an easy run because the greater exertion on uphill stretches is not associated with greater impact stress (it may in fact be much less impact stress than running at lower effort on flat ground). You don't want to be keeping your heart rate near threshold for too long on an easy run since that will also have physiological consequences and interfere with the goals of an easy run, but on rolling terrain don't sweat it if you're spending a few minutes here and there well above target heart rate as long as your heart rate is recovering on the downhills and the overall feel of the run is still easy. I don't think trying to keep your heart rate constant on rolling terrain is all that sensible because you'll probably need to blast downhills much too hard and that carries a lot of impact stress and injury risk.

Thanks all, appreciate the input here! It has taken some getting used to, but legs are feeling much better the day after, and actually feel like running again every time I finish a run.

Yeah it's pretty much all rolling hills here or straight climbs, and where I live I always have a 6-7% climb for the last mile-ish so slowing down on that and not trying to keep the same pace used to be a challenge, but feeling much better now, although it feels like I'm almost walking at times!

That's good to hear and the approach I've taken. I almost ignore my HR for those steeper climbs and just make sure I don't go too hard and overall just try and stay in Z2 as much as possible. Runs are much slower, but legs are feeling great so that's a win.