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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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MRid wrote:
Matt,

I'm wondering what was your projected/goal time for the run? It was a tremendous bike split, but do you think you overbiked? Or did you run pretty close to what you thought you would?

I honestly underbiked by quite a bit. Goal power was NP 310W, I hit NP 282W. Legs felt amazing coming off the bike and I never felt like I was overdoing it the whole ride.

I believe where I messed up was settling into my easy run rhythm and couldnā€™t snap out of it. I have always blown up on the run and I just kind of waited for that to happen yesterday because of the heat/hills/altitude compared to home. It never happened and I feel way too good today considering the race.

I think I can run a 1:30 on a flat course. I just donā€™t have the speed for downhill running to make up for the slow climbs yesterday. Iā€™m signing up for 70.3 Muncie and Iā€™m going to go smash that bike and run July 14th.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [turdburgler] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, I saw he said he backed off 5%, but it was still a really fast bike split (which is good), and it's not like a 1:40 run on that course is bad, I just was curious what his expected run was.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [MTL] [ In reply to ]
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MTL wrote:
Pb wrote:
ericMPro wrote:
leading the chase pack instead of last guy on the lead pack.... almost there. Just a little more 200m speed and maybe he gets there.


I have become a massive Lionel fan, but I donā€™t see him ever making that gap personally. As an ex national swimmer myself I have coached plenty of adult onset swimmers over the years and most lack the finer details (for example ankles and wrists, so important in swimming but so difficult for adult onset swimmers to develop truly flexible ankles. Especially triathletes, they always try to just not use their legs, which is fine, but if those feet arenā€™t properly pointed they will slow them down)

Sanders can keep going at close to threshold on the swim, but heā€™s doing so much endless pool work that all heā€™s doing is thoroughly cementing minor stroke issues instead of the kind of constant evaluation that comes with full on swim coaching.



Facts are last year he swam 26:25 this year 25:26, leading Sebi out of the water last he was a minute back!
Last year Sam Appleton swam 23:22 this 23:15... so he close the gap from 3:03 to 2:11... I see a nice improvement of 52 seconds that's huge for a swimmer such improvement of 3% and alone I mean not because he draft a pack.

Also, he was realistic in terms of closing more the gap saying it would require another 4 years. He might never swam on Frodeno, Amberger or Gomez feet but he has better chances of closing the gap than the group just mentioned extending their lead.

We have absolutely no idea, how hard was his effort during his swim today... We don't know where he is in term of periodization... might have not came fully fresh to this race... In his training cycle was the last block a swim focus or more turning ever stone on the bike since he was pretty unhappy with his bike in Oceanside.

Bottom line, he won today... different race then last year not having to chance Alistair instead he was in control, he didn't need to run any faster so probably save racing energy that he might require in October. Going too hard, too many in a season... will burn even the greatest.

I'm confident he will do the best preparation he think is going to be required to give him a chance to win Kona. It's going to be a different race this year with the Triple-J mafia in front (Josh, Javier and Jan)... Those 3 will make massive damage during the swim and bike... Last year, he caught quickly the front pack but I think it's going to take more time this year.

Daniela got her hands full with the fast swim-bike duo of Lauren and Lucy...

Hey, Alex, on the Kona side, if I was Jan with Josh and Javier, I think Jan would try to break Javier as soon as possible to ensure a good lead at T2....then wait for Lionel-Sebi-Cam show up. I can't see Javier doing any work because he's probably thinking he can outrun Lange and will ride whatever train he can get on for as long as possible. Jan will not outrun Lange head to head as he is heavier so he really has to go at some point, so even if he let's Josh go, I don't think he will let the Lionel train go this year. It will be interesting to see how fast Jan runs if he rides in with the Lionel train. I have no doubt he can ride that train, and I think he will want to because he probably thinks he can outrun all those guys, but he may not outrun Javier and Lange and need a lead on them.

I am happy to see Sebi's run time at St. George this early in the season. It's almost like everyone is forgetting about him. I bet he can win Kona with a good bike and solid run. And Sebi does not have to do a drag race at Frankfurt this summer....is he doing Roth? I hope he shows up at Kona fresh like Lionel with no IM's in the legs.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [drm437] [ In reply to ]
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drm437 wrote:
Zenmaster28 wrote:
drm437 wrote:
Iā€™m rooting for a war between Sanders and Sebi and Paula Findlay for the woman.

Well done.

.. a broken clock...

Been a fan of Paula ever since her rather memorable olympics. Sheā€™s quite a talent. Happy to see her around.

Yes me too so delighted to see her fulfilling her potential. What a run...
70.3 world champs! Maybe full distance next year?
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [Pb] [ In reply to ]
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Pb wrote:
Sorry, should have clarified there, I donā€™t mean flexible wrists, I mean an effortless sculling motion. Long term swimmers have this without thinking, constantly moving their wrists and engaging their forearms to the max, essentially maintaining traction in the water. Itā€™s not as difficult for adult onset swimmers as flexible ankles, but Iā€™ve never really seen anyone pick it up to the level of an ex swimmer.
Also I should point out (because the oh so typically slow twitch - read: combative - response of MTL suggests Iā€™m somehow knocking Lionel's performance) that Iā€™m not ragging on Lionel by saying this, hell i'm not even saying he needs to make the front pack on the swim. But regardless of his improvement up to now Iā€™m saying I highly doubt he will ever make the top pack, in fact Iā€™d suggest his improvement is likely to stall sometime soon.
I will be the first to admit he has done admirably in the pool, not denying that for one second. What Iā€™m saying is that while he has done great to close the gap from 3 min to 2, closing from 2 to 1 is going to be a hell of a lot tougher. When it comes to Kona they wonā€™t LET him get to the front pack, if he was there after 200m any of them could and most likely would drop him. At this point heā€™s just expending extra energy for little time gains.
Maybe Iā€™m wrong, time will tell, but as impressive as his swim improvement has been, I think heā€™s approaching marginal gains.
Oh and those flexible ankles? Great for swimming, but Iā€™ve always assumed they donā€™t help a run, as far as tri goes the run is more important anyway. So Iā€™m really not saying he needs them!

Ah, sculling, i see what you're getting at now; sculling is indeed one of those subtleties built up over years of swimming, and enhanced by swimming all 4 strokes.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [MRid] [ In reply to ]
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MRid wrote:
Yeah, I saw he said he backed off 5%, but it was still a really fast bike split (which is good), and it's not like a 1:40 run on that course is bad, I just was curious what his expected run was.

I expected to run 1:30, but I went into the race thinking the hills wouldnā€™t be so bad. Man was I wrong!!

Best bike split was giving me a 2:08 going into the race which I knew I could do pretty easily.

I did almost all of my training on a treadmill to get ā€œwarmerā€ temps than outside because it was winter until two weeks out from the race. I shouldā€™ve focused on the hills instead of weather.

Lots learned in that race, and stoked to know I can throw down a 4:31 on an insane course like that jogging in a 1:42.

Back to work on the run fitness!!
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [LifeTri] [ In reply to ]
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LifeTri wrote:
Pb wrote:
Sorry, should have clarified there, I donā€™t mean flexible wrists, I mean an effortless sculling motion. Long term swimmers have this without thinking, constantly moving their wrists and engaging their forearms to the max, essentially maintaining traction in the water. Itā€™s not as difficult for adult onset swimmers as flexible ankles, but Iā€™ve never really seen anyone pick it up to the level of an ex swimmer.

Also I should point out (because the oh so typically slow twitch - read: combative - response of MTL suggests Iā€™m somehow knocking Lionels performance) that Iā€™m not ragging on Lionel by saying this, hell im not even saying he needs to make the front pack on the swim. But regardless of his improvement up to now Iā€™m saying I highly doubt he will ever make the top pack, in fact Iā€™d suggest his improvement is likely to stall sometime soon.

I will be the first to admit he has done admirably in the pool, not denying that for one second. What Iā€™m saying is that while he has done great to close the gap from 3 mins to 2, closing from 2 to 1 is going to be a hell of a lot tougher. When it comes to Kona they wonā€™t LET him get to the front pack, if he was there after 200m any of them could and most likely would drop him. At this point heā€™s just expending extra energy for little time gains.

Maybe Iā€™m wrong, time will tell, but as impressive as his swim improvement has been, I think heā€™s approaching marginal gains.

Oh and those flexible ankles? Great for swimming, but Iā€™ve always assumed they donā€™t help a run, as far as tri goes the run is more important anyway. So Iā€™m really not saying he needs them!

I have literally been working to take sculling OUT of my stroke for a few months...and I have been going slower recently because of it...I didn't realize it was a good thing.


Iā€™ve known a few triathletes try that (I think mostly for a faster arm speed/turnaround?) but yes, the sculling action is absolutely crucial. Best way to simplify it is to say that if your hand moved in a totally straight line you would start to slip water (if you ever see white water bubbles coming from someoneā€™s hand under the water they are essentially slipping through it) whereas with a bit of a sculling action you keep traction on the water the whole way through. If you watch the top swimmers their hands will come out of the water at the same place they went in, the hand doesnā€™t move, the body does!

Itā€™s not as simple as an S shape (especially as the best will add a 4th stage to flick the hand out of the water giving a final push before the recovery phase) everyoneā€™s body shape is different so the path their hands need to take also varies.

Iā€™d advise swimming sets of 3/6/9/12 lengths split into three sections. The first youā€™ll swim with tightly balled fists, having to really dig with your wrists to get traction. The next section youā€™ll open your hands and fingers as wide as possible, again, having to work the wrists but not as much. Then the final section the normal ā€˜fingers togetherā€™ā€™ swimming to really build up the muscle memory and make the sculling action second nature. I always get my athletes doing this drill, itā€™s so simple yet so effective.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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Absolutely, itā€™s often neglected, just like kick, but the truth is that these finer details make the biggest difference. I wish triathletes would start doing kick sets. Seriously, itā€™s so friggin useful, I always tell my swimmers itā€™s not about developing a kick that will propel you, I understand the need to save the legs for the bike. But someone with a great kick can just tap along with a nice 2 beat kick as opposed to those that have terrible kick, try to not use their legs and instead get dragged down by them for 3.8k!
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [Pb] [ In reply to ]
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Pb wrote:
Absolutely, itā€™s often neglected, just like kick, but the truth is that these finer details make the biggest difference. I wish triathletes would start doing kick sets. Seriously, itā€™s so friggin useful, I always tell my swimmers itā€™s not about developing a kick that will propel you, I understand the need to save the legs for the bike. But someone with a great kick can just tap along with a nice 2 beat kick as opposed to those that have terrible kick, try to not use their legs and instead get dragged down by them for 3.8k!

Such a breath of fresh air some of the stuff you are saying and preaching to the choir. The biggest thing is when coaches don't really understand adult onset swimmers, or the general public and their expectations of the athletes. I always use this analogy... "imagine you learn German at 24 years old, do you think there is any chance you can go to Germany and they won't be able to detect that German is NOT your first language." Of course not, you just can't pass as German unless you learned it at a young age. But most coaches just think they can shoe-horn athletes with their youth swim experience. Kicking is all about developing a strong kick and an efficient kick, not that so you use it on race day, but if you have to then it actually does something for you.


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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [Thomas Gerlach] [ In reply to ]
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So good to hear others with the same attitude, so many triathletes think they know better and just know that they wonā€™t be kicking much so ā€˜donā€™t need to bother practisingā€™. Really though kick is hugely neglected among a heck of a lot of swimmers. I still occasionally work with elite level youth swimmers and 90% ā€˜hate kickā€™

I remember back in my swimming days in the lead up to a national championships my coach made me do an hour of kick per week (40x100m on 1.40 turnaround) for 6 months. I still remember how on the 50 back (I was a 200 back specialist) I did a PB of over a second and comfortably made the final having not expected to be anywhere close. Since then Iā€™ve always loved kick, not least because it made me good at it! I feel like kick is the low hanging fruit of the swimming tree for so many people!
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [asianzone] [ In reply to ]
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asianzone wrote:
drm437 wrote:
Zenmaster28 wrote:
drm437 wrote:
Iā€™m rooting for a war between Sanders and Sebi and Paula Findlay for the woman.

Well done.

.. a broken clock...

Been a fan of Paula ever since her rather memorable olympics. Sheā€™s quite a talent. Happy to see her around.

Yes me too so delighted to see her fulfilling her potential. What a run...
70.3 world champs! Maybe full distance next year?

I always wondered what happened to her, she seemed to go through a very brief period of dominance in ITU then completey disappeared of the scene.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [Jackets] [ In reply to ]
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Jackets wrote:

I always wondered what happened to her, she seemed to go through a very brief period of dominance in ITU then completey disappeared of the scene.

My outsiders take.

After she got injured and had her massive downturn in performance at ITU level. So went away and changed coaches. Then changed again, and again, and again. Rumours were that she wouldn't listen to them and as a result it always broke down. They'd tell her to have a rest day and she'd go out and do some intervals or something. She was forever overtraining, and then getting injured.

I suspect it's not uncommon with superstar athletes to want to go and train harder than their competitors, probably due to fear they are missing out, but smart outweighs hard generally.

I hope time has made her wiser about training. She is a great ambassador for the sport so be nice to see her do well again consistently.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [TriowaCPA] [ In reply to ]
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TriowaCPA wrote:
MRid wrote:
Matt,

I'm wondering what was your projected/goal time for the run? It was a tremendous bike split, but do you think you overbiked? Or did you run pretty close to what you thought you would?

I honestly underbiked by quite a bit. Goal power was NP 310W, I hit NP 282W. Legs felt amazing coming off the bike and I never felt like I was overdoing it the whole ride.

I believe where I messed up was settling into my easy run rhythm and couldnā€™t snap out of it. I have always blown up on the run and I just kind of waited for that to happen yesterday because of the heat/hills/altitude compared to home. It never happened and I feel way too good today considering the race.

I think I can run a 1:30 on a flat course. I just donā€™t have the speed for downhill running to make up for the slow climbs yesterday. Iā€™m signing up for 70.3 Muncie and Iā€™m going to go smash that bike and run July 14th.

I wouldnā€™t necessarily say you underbiked. The altitude difference compared to iowa will knock some of your power down anyways. That, along with consistent hills makes hitting NP pretty tough unless youā€™re drilling the uphills. I know how Iowa is and after biking in Colorado for the last 5 years, to hit a high normalized on that amount of hills requires a lot of extra power going up hill, unless you can somehow maintain power going down which generally isnā€™t that simple.
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Re: St. George - North America Championship - Who Ya Got? [Pb] [ In reply to ]
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Pb wrote:

Iā€™ve known a few triathletes try that (I think mostly for a faster arm speed/turnaround?) but yes, the sculling action is absolutely crucial. Best way to simplify it is to say that if your hand moved in a totally straight line you would start to slip water (if you ever see white water bubbles coming from someoneā€™s hand under the water they are essentially slipping through it) whereas with a bit of a sculling action you keep traction on the water the whole way through. If you watch the top swimmers their hands will come out of the water at the same place they went in, the hand doesnā€™t move, the body does!

Itā€™s not as simple as an S shape (especially as the best will add a 4th stage to flick the hand out of the water giving a final push before the recovery phase) everyoneā€™s body shape is different so the path their hands need to take also varies.

Iā€™d advise swimming sets of 3/6/9/12 lengths split into three sections. The first youā€™ll swim with tightly balled fists, having to really dig with your wrists to get traction. The next section youā€™ll open your hands and fingers as wide as possible, again, having to work the wrists but not as much. Then the final section the normal ā€˜fingers togetherā€™ā€™ swimming to really build up the muscle memory and make the sculling action second nature. I always get my athletes doing this drill, itā€™s so simple yet so effective.


I added sculling back into a 2200 yard set yesterday where the primary purpose was sighting, deck-ups, and putting the sculling back in. Despite the sighting 2-3 times per 25, which should slow me down, I swam 4 seconds faster per 100 with less fatigue. I guess I was having a lot of water slippage after all...
Last edited by: LifeTri: May 7, 18 10:31
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