Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I love this Dev. This picture has made me think a lot. For starters (assuming everyone was clean back then and everyone is clean now) it comes to show that all these products we are all buying are mainly to look nice and/or to fit in the tri crowd. I love triathlon. But it comes to show that the companies and the pros pushing all these products that are supposed to make you significantly faster, are simply lying. Either that or the pros today are nn a level way below what the pros were back then. The only time I went to kona was in 2016 and I remember that year the only women who biked in the 4:50s was Dani Ryf. It is amazing to me that with all the new equipment, training, recovery methods, nutrition, professional bike fitters, they would still get outsplitted by PNB 20 years ago, on basic old gear.
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is my favorite Slowtwitch thread- keep it coming!
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [Mark Lemmon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Am I mistaken that I have read multiple comments over the years that PNF's bike splits were probably aided by the mass start that included AGers? //


I'm not sure if people say this or not, but it wouldn't be true. I had a very unique vantage point of many of Paula's rides. I did the race like 15 times since the very first one in Kona, and I always had a very hard time in the heat. I only was able to really race for about 6 hours and then bam I was done..So after many of these races I just gave in that Kona was not my race, was never going to be. So I approached many of the races with the attitude of watching the womans race, although from the race itself.

So I would swim my usual 50/51 with the guys that would fill out the top 10, and then soft pedal for 40 or so miles until Paula would catch up to me. My thought was if I just rode the womans pace, then perhaps I could have a good run in that heat. She would catch me usually all alone, or with one or two AG'ers in tow. I immediately went to the back so as not to interfere with her race, and there I had my front row seat. In at least 3 races I can remember the would ride the couple agers off her back, and I remembered it was not that easy for me hanging back at times. But I would ride the whole rest of the ride right there out of earshot, but could see what was going on.

She would just get stronger and stronger as the day wore on, like she took energy from the heat, unlike it sapping every ounce of my speed. There were no AG;ers catching up and riding with her, if there was a few here and there it was the guys that were riding 10 to 20 minutes faster and they would be gone. But really if you look at her splits and the AG ones, that was rare to have a guy up there, they would be riding at the back of the pro mens field at that pace.

And there was no camera van hanging around all day, but there was almost always a Moto with a Marshall on it with her while she was leading(most of the time). They would just sit behind her all day long and really had nothing to do, except make sure no men pulled in front of her and then slowed down. She rode about as legit a tt for Kona as I have ever seen, she was just that good. Of course she now has a very long history and a lot of ironmans and 1/2's to show just how good she was on the bike.

She was also a bit ahead of her time with equipment, rode 24" wheels for a lot for a lot of those races that put her body in a very good position, even by todays standards. But what really impressed me was when I tried to run the marathon with her. I would sit on her pace for a few miles, then she would just go off into the sunset. Just like the bike, she would just get faster and faster as the day wore on, feeding off the heat once again. She reminds me of Rinny now, or Patrick Lange, the all seem to negative split the entire race and it just doesn't seem like it is hot to them.

So you can rest assured those times of hers are real, from start to finish. She quite possibly could have the best physiology ever for that Kona course, man or woman.. It just boggled me how someone I would routinely beat by 20+ minutes in a 1/2 ironman could so own me on any course. Took me awhile to figure out that there really is a 4th event there, and it wasn't the one I did after the race...(-;
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What a fantastic thread given the recent (and deserved) negativity the last few days. Thanks for the perspective Monty!
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks Monty for the front row stadium seating in Kona. That was one of the most interesting posts ever on ST (and yes, I can clearly biased since I started this thread).
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [Richard Blaine] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Richard Blaine wrote:
devashish_paul wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
I think this only underscores, what is well known, but often disregarded. The rider position is about 70% of the drag, wheels, frame, everything else is 30%. Granted we understand a lot more now about aero positioning, but there was no reason someone's position 30 years could not be as good as today, regardless of the relative clunker of a bike they might have been on.


I guess exhibit A would be Anquetil's TT position on his drop bars. This is from Tour De France 1964



Man, will they never understand? His cranks are *way* to long. If he'd use shorter cranks he'd open up his hip angle. His run off the bike would be much improved.

In seriousness: I think his saddle is too low by modern standards. Check the knee angle in his right leg. But besides that, you're right - looks pretty efficient.

I believe Coggan has said multiple times on here that power is almost not at all affected being too low. We can be 4 cm too low and it does not change power output....which makes sense as the glutes work better in the mid range of a squat or lunge. What changes with the low position is the knees to the chest in the TT position making it harder to remain aero.

I THINK what happened back then, was they had one bike and they rode it with the same position for the entire TdF. That low saddle position when you sit way back in the saddle for climbing actually ends up being around 3-4 cm 'virtually higher". Riders would generally ride grand tours with low saddle positions for long term hamstring and lower back ease as well as saddle sores...so come TT day, you'll see most of them from that era using their same bikes on what looks like lower positions. That's becaue they are scooted up on the saddle and shortening their saddle height to marginally open up hip angle but also get into the drops (the old school bikes had crazy long top tubes/reach and long front centers....keep in mind they needed these tourist type bikes for shitty roads and offroad

Here is Anquetil climbing Col de Tourmalet in 1963 (the image is beyond epic, thanks google)....in his climbing position he seemed to have more conventitonal extension


Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
monty wrote:
Am I mistaken that I have read multiple comments over the years that PNF's bike splits were probably aided by the mass start that included AGers? //

So you can rest assured those times of hers are real, from start to finish. She quite possibly could have the best physiology ever for that Kona course, man or woman.. It just boggled me how someone I would routinely beat by 20+ minutes in a 1/2 ironman could so own me on any course. Took me awhile to figure out that there really is a 4th event there, and it wasn't the one I did after the race...(-;


Thanks, Monty for the eyewitness accounts and clearing that up! I have no doubt that PNF was a supreme talent.
Last edited by: Mark Lemmon: May 1, 18 16:30
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
She might of raced clean nearly all the time, but I believe she did get a drafting time penalty in one of her later IM Hawaii’s. Maybe someone can confirm the year.
Quote Reply
Re: 1988 KONA Finisher Splits: PNF 9:01/4:57 bike on old tech [wetswimmer99] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
wetswimmer99 wrote:
She might of raced clean nearly all the time, but I believe she did get a drafting time penalty in one of her later IM Hawaii’s. Maybe someone can confirm the year.

Her and Luc Van Lierde both got penalties at Kona 1996. Van Lierde's moving time is faster than Crowie or Lange from that year...but back then you could have drinks and cool off in the penalty box at T2. PNF was caught in a situational drafting scenario out of T1....but as Monty said, in almost all of her IM's including Kona, she dropped nearly every age group man and many pro men. You just have to look at the splits to see that the population around her was very sparse.

Also in 1996, she won IM Australia and either a week or 2 week later she won Wildflower....the reason why I know her results so well from 1996 is because at Wildflower that year, (drive by brag) I had the identical time to PNF and that's where I first met her. She either finished right before me or right after me in the results and I was wishing the race was mass start so that I could have done the entire race with her since our splits were so close, but I was pretty well solo all day in the 30-34 age group wave.

Dev
Quote Reply

Prev Next