He’s not saying the complete opposite. He’s refining what everyone is saying. I would tend to listen to what Dave has to say. He’s doing his research or at least listening to the latestest research and applying it before he speaks. I would argue the Whey protein comment might be biased to EAS but you can’t blame him on that.

Remember the science originally said flood your system with antioxidants post work out to limit the free radical damage. Today the science says no antioxidants. We train for the damage so let the body do the repair. Eat your berries later in the day to replace your antioxidants.

20 years ago he made a statement and I paraphrase: out of the swim, don’t start fueling. Drink water. Start your feeling 20 minutes into the bike once your stomach begins to settle.
My training partners and I stopped puking in the first 5 miles of the bike after we started using this method.

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Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

I don't know anything about the testosterone and hgh part, but Dave has been full-on anti-carb pro keto for athletes for a long time. He's reading research, but I think his personal selection bias is causing him to favor some very poor research over better studies. I've heard him cite several of those keto studies that say athletes perform better on it that have been totally debunked.

A couple of years ago I attended a talk he gave to my tri club where he advocated doing an Ironman taking in no carbs and only fat during the event. He told us fructose would basically kill us all and we should never eat fruit.

Can you imagine waiting 2.5 to 3 hours after finishing a long hard workout before you really start to refuel (other than 2 scoops of protien powder and a cracker an hour after)?? I would be the most miserable person on my block. I certainly wouldn't be looking forward to my next workout.

At the end of the talk he gave us a list of like 50 dietary supplements we should all be taking.

If we were to follow this advice and are doing two workouts a day.... When can we eat!?!

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Things change with the times. I think at one point Dave was a vegan/vegetarian proponent.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I'm not hflc or keto at the moment. I did have a period where I was very strict using the vespa ofm protocol. I never wanted or needed to eat for 2 hours post work out. It was also the best I felt and recovered quicker than in the past.

Rather than rely on studies I suggest giving it a try if it is something that interests you. I'm not saying it's right or wrong or if everyone should do it but if you are interested slightly then I would give it a try and see how your body reacts to it.

Is it me or is the thought process that everyone is different seem to apply to diet.

Some people can digest diary, some cannot. Some can handle gluten and some cannot. Some have carrot allergies and some do not. Some people even have water allergies. Some car engines prefer premium fuel while some perform better on unleaded. A body is an engine with an immense about of variables so what works for one person will not necessarily work for others.


FOR INSTANCE. I never ate meat until I was in college. To this day (at 29) if I eat any red meat (hamburger) - I will feel like total shi* for hours. Chicken/Turkey/Fish are fine with me though. Dunno why red meat kills me.

Purposefully inducing a condition most commonly associated with diabetes and starvation is not something I want to just try out to see how it works. If you felt so awesome on it, why did you stop?

The advice that we should just ignore the scientific evidence and do it anyway is pretty awful. But lots of keto fanatics say this. The other half point to studies designed to give the results they want, rather than any actual valid and actionable information.

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

Hey I don't really care if you do or don't do it. I was just offering my n=1.

Why am I not currently doing it? Self control.

+1 on this.

I actually used to go train long, long hours on nothing but elektrolyte tabs and maybe a banana if I was almost bonking. Didn't refuel afterwards, and would starve myself for as long as I could in an attempt to get the leanest I could possible be because I thought it would make me faster and make me a fat-burning machine.

I got to 3% bodyfat, trashed my testosterone and needed almost a year to recover from that bullsh*t. Not to mention that it induced some psychological issues concerning body-image etc, which were another part of the recoveryprocess.

Every since I started adequately (not excessively) fueling workouts and refueling post workout, I have cut 20sec/100m off my swimtimes, I became a ton stronger on the bike and am actually able to play tactics in a race instead of hanging on for dear life, and my runtimes have improved despite the slight weight gain (8%BF at the moment).

Dave is a knowledgeable dude and a great speaker but he has always done great and is great... His kona record set on rinsed cottage cheese stood 20 years? .... Then that's perfect... No need for radical new theories

One thing is for sure, the human body is pretty resilient. I've heard people win on mostly carbs, or with no meat, or with only protein or with mainly fat, eating a lasagne for dinner, or a pizza or a tray of brownies, people that run the marathon on coke.... Etc.

The body is adaptive... There's almost no definate rules

One interesting YouTube podcast on food though.... Joe rogan and matt Fitzgerald......covers a lot of scientific ground including noakes renouncing years of coaching knowledge... Pretty interesting stuff

Do you have a link? Would love to check it out

Dave has been consistent, and has been very adamant and sure of what to eat and when. Only problem is, that when he won his 6 Kona's and dominated the sport, he at little to no fat, almost no animal protein, and ate exactly the opposite of what he proposes now. He was quite adamant back then too..

The guy here who said that it is personal, that is what I'm adamant about. Diets do not work the same in people, timing of the eating or the variety of the foods. Perhaps Dave could have been faster back in the old days, but I have a strong feeling he got just about everything he could out of his body, especially when you consider his equipment choices and his styles in the sports. His engine is what got him to the finish lines first, not his finesse.

All that is not to say that bodies don't change, they do. I have witnessed this first hand and my diet now is not the same or even can be of what I ate in my younger pro days. Goes back to the individual part of my theory..

sorry, mark sisson not matt - but its 2 and half hours long....



https://www.youtube.com/...6InD2nDk&t=1262s



ETA : at 1.15 - 1.25 he mentions fasting after a workout as well to keep HGH and T levels high

What you describe sounds like craziness and a recipe for disaster which you found out the hard way. Let me be clear what you describe is nothing like what I did or suggested below.

There is an extreme level which is not healthy for exercise or competing at a high level and what one person mentioned about not taking in carbs while racing is not in the slightest optimal for performance. Yes it might be possible but why!?!

Before assuming every person is on the most extreme low carb protocol there is, just understand there is a middle ground where you can limit the carb use to a point that is great for performance and health that to some might seem extreme but it is not close to keto or training in ketosis.

There are too many guys at the pointy end utilising this to dismiss it completely.

First refueling window is 40-60 minutes after the workout works fine for me ... that's about how long it takes be to leave the gym, stop to get beer, then get home & make some chicken parm for dinner

I guess I do both refueling sessions together?

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"What's your claim?" - Ben Gravy
"Your best work is the work you're excited about" - Rick Rubin

In the 40-90 minute post workout window he is saying you only get 20g of protein and like 25g (100 kcals) of carbs. You have to wait 2.5 to 3 hours after the workout to actually refuel, according to Dave.

So... my typical Tuesday, swim practice starts at 6:30am. I'm out of the pool at 7:45. So I get 20g of protein and a gel at 8:30. Then I can have breakfast at 10:45 after being super crabby all morning. For any normal person this "breakfast" would have to be at their desk or in a meeting. When do I eat lunch? Probably not until 4pm, then also at my desk or in a meeting. So am I only eating smoothies? Then I have track practice at 5:45 so I have to run fast 400's, 1200's and mile repeats with lunch in my stomach? Ugh. That's over at 6:45 unless I puke before that. Then I can't have dinner until 9:15 pm at the earliest?

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Ed O'Malley
www.VeloVetta.com
Founder of VeloVetta Cycling Shoes
Instagram • Facebook

I don't think that is a fair representation of the facts.

There is a big difference between Nutritional Ketosis and Diabetic Ketoacidosis.

I don't really follow the exercise science literature much any more so take this with a grain of salt but...

It seems like to me that what goes on is folks love to extrapolate from studies looking at hormone or glycogen storage responses or whatever to making recommendations without ever asking are the changes (or the degree to which they change) meaningful?

Does it actually improve "recovery" (which never seems to be well defined let alone measured) and performance?

OK, so I wait to eat a while after working out to up my testosterone/GH levels? Does that lead to any measurable increase in what I care about (weight loss, "recovery", performance)?

I forgot what runner it was but he had a routine that before every race he would have a beer and and a steak. I personally would die in the first 100 yards but it worked for him haha

That's a pretty extreme interpretation of "the science."

I think we tend to wildly over-react to these types of things. My interpretation is: don't take high dose / powerful antioxidant supplements.

If I feel like a berry smoothie after my workout, I'm going to drink my goddamn berry smoothie.

A classic problem that new scientists often have to come to grips with (at least with this sort of research) is the temptation to over-generalize from their results.

I don't think coaches or fitness/diet gurus have ever heard of this :)

Similarly, does anyone have one of those annoying Facebook friends who have gone on the exogenous ketone supps, claiming endless energy, better workouts etc.... even when smashing bottles of wine on the weekend? This pyramid is hanging around just as long as isagenix did. Because, science

FWIW, there are plenty of data demonstrating that acute hormonal responses (e.g., in GH or testosterone) do NOT play a role in the anabolic response to resistance exercise (Bill Kramer's studies be damned).

More globally, I agree with your general assessment that sports science/sports scientists often do a piss-poor job of decisively addressing important questions. Sometimes it is simply due to lack of resources/necessary methodologies (e.g., invasive procedures), but all too often it is because many in the field simply aren't very deep thinkers.

Sadly through the years I've seen him promote whomever and whatever philosophy pays him the most $$. There always seems to be a tie in to his "sponsors" when I see him the last few years. I suppose many former and current athletes do change with sponsorship, but I really take very little of what he states as realistic and good methods for me. He bounces around from this thing to that way too often for my taste, even though he was my favorite back in the day......