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Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero?
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I did my first race in a new position that put me much lower in the front.

Comparatively, on the same course as last year I was almost 2 minutes slower (no fitness drop that I'm aware of and, although much colder, no wind that I recall either day). Unfortunately, due to the timing of the position shift and issues with ordering bike parts, this was my first ride in the new position. I also just started riding with a PM so I can't compare that year-over-year.

Given I'm the same rider who feels equally trained (I know, that's very subjective), I was expecting a faster, not slower bike split, and I certainly didn't expect to be 2 minutes slower. But, I can see how a different position means different muscle recruitment so maybe there's a learning curve in power for my new position?

The above leads me to this question: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring power during the fit?

I ask this question from an academic perspective, but also because I'm from the Philadelphia area and can't seem to get anyone here who lists "fitting" on their website to actually set up an appointment. Therefore, if I need to make adjustments, I'm stuck with driving 90+ minutes at least and I want to make that trip worth it.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't assume that your new position is more aero either. Lower is not always more aero.


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The above leads me to this question: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring power during the fit?


I don't think that trying to measure power during a fit is all that valuable, except as a sanity-check on basic comfort issues.

It's the rest of the time that you want to be measuring things. Just power is a start. And if you test on a relatively controlled course (Valley Preferred Cycling Center?) you can do your own aero testing as well.

Year-over-year on a race course isn't a great comparison. There can easily be wind changes that you can't feel that can add up to 2 minutes.
Last edited by: trail: Apr 23, 18 17:44
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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ITs really hard to compare triathlon courses from year to year on just feel alone. I would suggest first thing to do is what I tell swimmers looking for some context in their OW triathlon swims, look at the best guys splits from this year to last year. You. will also find a lot of athletes that did both years, looks and see what they biked. You might just find that the course was 2 minutes(or more or less) slower for everyone. So first thing before you panic, get some context from a large sample size.

Next thing is to be honest about the conditions and how you rode it. Were you behind large groups last year(legal of course) and all alone most the race this year? Figure out what the actual ride last year was as compared to this year.

Did you wear a HR monitor? That would be good info to have too.

But to answer your original question, yes if you made a drastic change to your position then you would need to train in it to take advantage of it, unless you were just sitting upright last year..Did you run faster this year, have an overall time faster??
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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Clearly you need to swim more. That is certainly the answer.

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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think measuring power during the fit is the way to go. In fact, if you really fit a rider to power, you are usually going to end up with a somewhat sitting up, rearward shifted, climbing position. What I personally fit to is the riders "perception of power", tempered by what I know to be the body angle ranges where their "nexus of power" is likely to occur.

You really have no actionable data to draw any conclusions at this point. You went different speeds, different years, under different conditions. That's all you really know.

Someone mentioned lower isn't always faster. Sure, you can say that. If you want to be more correct, I'd change it to, lower is almost always faster, everything else being equal, which it seldom is. But really, lower is usually faster.

What you could do is fold a towel in such a way to give you about 2-3cm more rise when you put it under your elbows. Do some long interval work with the towel in place... maybe 2 x 20:00? About 10:00 - 15:00 through each interval, pull the towel out and keep going. If those 2-3cm of increased drop are causing you problems, you will find out very quickly. It's like a dynamic fit bike in your own home!
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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I like to say power AND aero. No need to compromise.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I like to say power AND aero. No need to compromise.

Right, you can do both. That's allowed.

What matters is (mostly) watts/drag, not just watts alone, not just drag alone. A good fitter will look for ways to maximize watts/drag.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Clearly you need to swim more. That is certainly the answer.

Back off, tough guy. My swim was 8 seconds faster than last year. 1:38/100 yds. I'm coming for you.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [FindinFreestyle] [ In reply to ]
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FindinFreestyle wrote:
I don't think measuring power during the fit is the way to go. In fact, if you really fit a rider to power, you are usually going to end up with a somewhat sitting up, rearward shifted, climbing position. What I personally fit to is the riders "perception of power", tempered by what I know to be the body angle ranges where their "nexus of power" is likely to occur.

You really have no actionable data to draw any conclusions at this point. You went different speeds, different years, under different conditions. That's all you really know.

Someone mentioned lower isn't always faster. Sure, you can say that. If you want to be more correct, I'd change it to, lower is almost always faster, everything else being equal, which it seldom is. But really, lower is usually faster.

What you could do is fold a towel in such a way to give you about 2-3cm more rise when you put it under your elbows. Do some long interval work with the towel in place... maybe 2 x 20:00? About 10:00 - 15:00 through each interval, pull the towel out and keep going. If those 2-3cm of increased drop are causing you problems, you will find out very quickly. It's like a dynamic fit bike in your own home!

Thanks for the towel idea. I assume I'll either feel more or less "powerful" when I remove the towel? Just to be clear, it wasn't at all a comfort issue. I was able to stay in aero position and ride comfortably.

I am of analytical mind, so I guess I thought once you have the body in a the good range of hip/knee angles, you can go to either end of what is acceptable based on what is more powerful. Making up numbers, if a reasonable knee angle is 140-150 degrees, I might ride more powerfully at 150 degrees (and the way to know that is test power as I try the different positions).

Again, thanks for the help. I have read and followed many of your swimming tips. If you were closer to Philly, I'd be in your shop tomorrow.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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DJRed wrote:
The above leads me to this question: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring power during the fit?

Alternatively: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring aero drag after the fit?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [monty] [ In reply to ]
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monty wrote:
ITs really hard to compare triathlon courses from year to year on just feel alone. I would suggest first thing to do is what I tell swimmers looking for some context in their OW triathlon swims, look at the best guys splits from this year to last year. You. will also find a lot of athletes that did both years, looks and see what they biked. You might just find that the course was 2 minutes(or more or less) slower for everyone. So first thing before you panic, get some context from a large sample size.

Next thing is to be honest about the conditions and how you rode it. Were you behind large groups last year(legal of course) and all alone most the race this year? Figure out what the actual ride last year was as compared to this year.

Did you wear a HR monitor? That would be good info to have too.

But to answer your original question, yes if you made a drastic change to your position then you would need to train in it to take advantage of it, unless you were just sitting upright last year..Did you run faster this year, have an overall time faster??

I truly don't recall the specifics of the day last year, just that it was about 65 degrees (20 degrees warmer than this year).

Unfortunately, my HR data looks suspect because for a good portion I dropped and stayed in Z1.

However, I did look at the top 10 and there were some repeat racers. Everyone else was slower as well.

My run was slower this year.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
DJRed wrote:

The above leads me to this question: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring power during the fit?


Alternatively: Is a visual bike fit pointless without measuring aero drag after the fit?

If you saw my before and after you would see reduced aero drag without having to measure anything. The change was pretty drastic. I was basically a sailboat before the change.
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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However, I did look at the top 10 and there were some repeat racers. Everyone else was slower as well. //

Well there you have it, all those gray hairs for nothing..(-;
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Re: Fitters Question: Power vs. Aero? [DJRed] [ In reply to ]
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cold air makes everyone slower then warm air. So there is that.

power is more important then aero. Look at the top bikers vs the slower bikers they all have the same fits so I would say power is the variable for speed.

If you can hold x position at a cost of x power lose so what you are slow.

A proper fit should be comfort which allows you to train regularly without issues, power loading which makes bikes go fast. Aero position which allows you to close open gaps and get better aero flow with a minimal power lose.

That said I have compared hundreds of athletes power files on the same course all with different bikes and set ups. POWER WINS EVERY TIME. e.g. Lineol sanders

Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter
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