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Re: Racial tolerance [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:

Starbucks' goal is to create a "third place" experience, meaning, a place aside from your home or place of work you go to meet friends, read, relax, whatever. That's in their own words, they are selling this "third place" experience, not coffee. If I went in to a Starbucks and was harrassed for taking too long to order something I'd be pretty pissed. Especially if I explained that I was waiting for other members of my party to arrive.

I think you are taking the "third place experience" beyond its intent. From Starbuck's website: https://www.starbucks.com/.../company-information

In 1983, Howard traveled to Italy and became captivated with Italian coffee bars and the romance of the coffee experience. He had a vision to bring the Italian coffeehouse tradition back to the United States. A place for conversation and a sense of community. A third place between work and home. He left Starbucks for a short period of time to start his own Il Giornale coffeehouses and returned in August 1987 to purchase Starbucks with the help of local investors.

Also:

Expect More Than Coffee
We’re not just passionate purveyors of coffee, but everything else that goes with a full and rewarding coffeehouse experience. We also offer a selection of premium teas, fine pastries and other delectable treats to please the taste buds. And the music you hear in store is chosen for its artistry and appeal.

It’s not unusual to see people coming to Starbucks to chat, meet up or even work. We’re a neighborhood gathering place, a part of the daily routine – and we couldn’t be happier about it. Get to know us and you’ll see: we are so much more than what we brew.

We make sure everything we do is through the lens of humanity – from our commitment to the highest quality coffee in the world, to the way we engage with our customers and communities to do business responsibly.


It seems pretty clear their intent is not to be a public library, but a place where you gather, meet up, and/or work to eat their food and drink their beverages. The "third place experience" means "we want you to stay here for long periods of time AND buy our coffee and tea. They do not play music and offer WiFi b/c they enjoy your presence.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

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Re: Racial tolerance [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
getcereal wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
getcereal wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. So if someone says they're waiting for a friend then let them wait a reasonable time. If no friend arrives and they refuse to buy any products, then ask them to leave. Call police as a last resort. Apply policies uniformly.


Pretty subjective. What is a reasonable time and what if they also want to use the bathroom?


of course it's subjective. Every situation is different in some way. The use of reasonableness is used all the time in law. No reason a Starbucks manager can't do the same.

If they want to use the bathroom while they wait for a friend, fine, as long as you think their story is reasonable and they haven't waited an unreasonable time without buying anything. If the same person comes in every day to use the bathroom and never buys anything, that's unreasonable.


Well in this case, the supervisor used her professional/reasonable judgement) followed the rules and was fired for it. The two who in my opinion were being very unreasonable!
From what I heard they-
Wanted to use the rest room, but were told 'no the restrooms are paying customers'. - Seems reasonable, they could of easily bought a cup of coffee for the privilege.

Then they sat down at a table, and once again were told the tables are for paying customers, - Makes sense

They stayed there for 15 mins and then police arrived.- That is a long time to hold up a valuable table that paying customers can't use.

The police asked them 3 times to leave, they refused, - Those are combative stubborn people.

They were then arrested, - What choice did the cops have, should they just let assholes take over where ever they feel.

Later to be released with no charges pressed by Starbucks

Now the women who made the her professional/subjective decisions no longer has a job.
.


Did the guys ever once say "we are just waiting for a friend, we want to buy him a coffee and will order then"?

Starbucks' goal is to create a "third place" experience, meaning, a place aside from your home or place of work you go to meet friends, read, relax, whatever. That's in their own words, they are selling this "third place" experience, not coffee. If I went in to a Starbucks and was harrassed for taking too long to order something I'd be pretty pissed. Especially if I explained that I was waiting for other members of my party to arrive.

I don't know about you. But I find if people just stick to the basic rules and understand them there is a lot less anarchy, and people crying foul, making a more relaxing environment. This will be interesting how all this plays out, as the CEO bends over to all the perpetually victims demands..
I love watching the left eat themselves. I just think it is sad a woman manager lost her job for following the rules, maybe she can get a job at Chic-Fillet.
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Re: Racial tolerance [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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If those men planned on buying something, and were simply waiting for a friend, and made that intent clear, I don't see why they should be denied use of the washroom or a table, or asked to leave when it's pretty common for someone to buy a $1.50 tea and use free WiFi for a couple hours. Im not sure if they stated they were waiting for a friend or not.

Either way, it seems like the manager, at best, provided extremely shitty customer service.

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Racial tolerance [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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BCtriguy1 wrote:
If those men planned on buying something, and were simply waiting for a friend, and made that intent clear, I don't see why they should be denied use of the washroom or a table, or asked to leave when it's pretty common for someone to buy a $1.50 tea and use free WiFi for a couple hours. Im not sure if they stated they were waiting for a friend or not.

Either way, it seems like the manager, at best, provided extremely shitty customer service.

I don't disagree. However, there have been several posts in this thread linking articles containing information inconsistent with the scenario you paint above. As Crank stated - we don't know all the facts and this situation is not as simple as your express.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Racial tolerance [BLeP] [ In reply to ]
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Starbucks doesn't really care if you've ordered a coffee or not. They really want the place to seem like a place that you'd want to go, and having lots of people in the store helps create that vibe. get enough boots through the door and you sell product. If someone wants Starbucks, they aren't going to refrain from ordering because the tables are all taken.

If they didn't want you in the cafe for long periods of time, they wouldn't offer free wifi.

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Re: Racial tolerance [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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I think we are on the same page here. I've asked a few times about the conversation had between the manager and the guys. Did these men not speak? I think that's key to how this shook out. I agree there is missing information, that's why I started the first paragraph you quoted with "if".

Long Chile was a silly place.
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Re: Racial tolerance [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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maybe they should make some different versions of the logo so the mermaid is non-white

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
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Re: Racial tolerance [BCtriguy1] [ In reply to ]
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"Honestly - what conversation about actual racism has to take place here?"

No one has to have a conversation about anything, and I'm not suggesting that anyone should. But if a room of people consistently complain about the Bears and how well the Packers are doing, it tells me a lot about what interests them and I wouldn't use the lack of talking about Chicago field goals as any evidence of how common they are.

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Re: Racial tolerance [JSA] [ In reply to ]
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"I don't disagree. However, there have been several posts in this thread linking articles containing information inconsistent with the scenario you paint above. As Crank stated - we don't know all the facts and this situation is not as simple as your express. "

FWIW, I don't have much of an opinion on this case because, like you said, there's not really enough info.


This happened in Philly and there's a little bit of background information that should be shared. It was in a neighborhood called Rittenhouse Square, which is a bit of a trendy, upscale, artsy neighborhood. I've ridden my bike through it probably 50 times in the last 10. Google images of it and I you will see very few black people in them despite the fact that its in a city that is majority black. Most nice sections of the city are going to be predominantly white, but black people are not uncommon. Its not like, say, Pittsburgh where there are very few blacks, and most come from the poor neighborhoods.

So, black guys in white neighborhood....hmmmm, what are they doing here?
Its a predominantly black city......oh, okay.
But they look like.............well, they look like black hipsters, not criminals.







Seriously, I get it when someone looks like a criminal, be it because they look like a gang member, or a tatted up hardcore fan (no offense, Joel =) ), or whatever. I also get it if you are new around here and don't no the subtle difference between different social classes within minority groups. But anyone who grew up in this area should have been able to take one look at their hair and clothes and, other than being black, not think that they were at all out of place in that neighborhood.

Having said that, no idea what additional back story there is.


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Re: Racial tolerance [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote:


Seriously, I get it when someone looks like a criminal, be it because they look like a gang member, or a tatted up hardcore fan (no offense, Joel =) ), or whatever. I also get it if you are new around here and don't no the subtle difference between different social classes within minority groups. But anyone who grew up in this area should have been able to take one look at their hair and clothes and, other than being black, not think that they were at all out of place in that neighborhood.

Having said that, no idea what additional back story there is.

I've mentioned this before - I will be treated like a dignitary and an escaped con all in the same lunch period. Used to happed all the time at the gym. I would enter in my work clothes and get smiles and greetings from the little old ladies. Go to the pool and get looked at with complete disdain. No question about it. I have seen how different I am treated simply due to the ink on my skin. I cannot imagine what that is like having that treatment (much more enhanced than what I have ever experienced, of course) based simply on the color of your skin.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Racial tolerance [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
Starbucks doesn't really care if you've ordered a coffee or not. They really want the place to seem like a place that you'd want to go, and having lots of people in the store helps create that vibe. get enough boots through the door and you sell product. If someone wants Starbucks, they aren't going to refrain from ordering because the tables are all taken.

If they didn't want you in the cafe for long periods of time, they wouldn't offer free wifi.

Of course they do. This position is inconsistent. If people go there to meet other people and be part of this "vibe" there have to be seats open. I've seen people confronted in the SBUX closest to me because its not uncommon that there aren't any seats available, so in these cases people walk across the street to a different coffee shop. Starbucks does not want that.
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Re: Racial tolerance [Uncle Arqyle] [ In reply to ]
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Uncle Arqyle wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
Starbucks doesn't really care if you've ordered a coffee or not. They really want the place to seem like a place that you'd want to go, and having lots of people in the store helps create that vibe. get enough boots through the door and you sell product. If someone wants Starbucks, they aren't going to refrain from ordering because the tables are all taken.

If they didn't want you in the cafe for long periods of time, they wouldn't offer free wifi.


Of course they do. This position is inconsistent. If people go there to meet other people and be part of this "vibe" there have to be seats open. I've seen people confronted in the SBUX closest to me because its not uncommon that there aren't any seats available, so in these cases people walk across the street to a different coffee shop. Starbucks does not want that.

Exactly. I don't understand how people are missing the point that the free wifi is there to entice you in with the intent you will buy their coffee, then smell a baked good and buy that, then buy another coffee while you hang out. Of course they want you to stay there for long periods of time because the longer you stay, the more you are likely to buy.

Starbucks is no different than a bar. Of course they want you to stay there as long as possible, which is why they offer large televisions and other amenities to make you comfortable. But, they do not want the bar stools occupied by butts that are not buying alcohol.

If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR
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Re: Racial tolerance [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This happened in Philly and there's a little bit of background information that should be shared. It was in a neighborhood called Rittenhouse Square, which is a bit of a trendy, upscale, artsy neighborhood. I've ridden my bike through it probably 50 times in the last 10. Google images of it and I you will see very few black people in them despite the fact that its in a city that is majority black. Most nice sections of the city are going to be predominantly white, but black people are not uncommon.

I agree with the first part of your description of Rittenhouse Square. I disagree with the bolded. My in laws have owned condos in Rittenhouse Square for at least 15 years. That's an area we used to spend a lot of time at , Rouge and Devon seafood. Have friends and clients who live there. In laws now live in Washington Square which is another nice area. Anyone who lives, works, or spends any amount of time there and the city in general I highly doubt would question the color of someone's skin unless they had underlying racist issues that could make it an issue regardless of location.
Google images IMO is not an accurate representation of the area. Personally I'd be more surprised to not see a diverse group of people there.

Quote:
But anyone who grew up in this area should have been able to take one look at their hair and clothes and, other than being black, not think that they were at all out of place in that neighborhood

I also agree wholeheartedly with this.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Racial tolerance [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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getcereal wrote:
BCtriguy1 wrote:
getcereal wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
getcereal wrote:
Kay Serrar wrote:
I think the answer is somewhere in the middle. So if someone says they're waiting for a friend then let them wait a reasonable time. If no friend arrives and they refuse to buy any products, then ask them to leave. Call police as a last resort. Apply policies uniformly.


Pretty subjective. What is a reasonable time and what if they also want to use the bathroom?


of course it's subjective. Every situation is different in some way. The use of reasonableness is used all the time in law. No reason a Starbucks manager can't do the same.

If they want to use the bathroom while they wait for a friend, fine, as long as you think their story is reasonable and they haven't waited an unreasonable time without buying anything. If the same person comes in every day to use the bathroom and never buys anything, that's unreasonable.


Well in this case, the supervisor used her professional/reasonable judgement) followed the rules and was fired for it. The two who in my opinion were being very unreasonable!
From what I heard they-
Wanted to use the rest room, but were told 'no the restrooms are paying customers'. - Seems reasonable, they could of easily bought a cup of coffee for the privilege.

Then they sat down at a table, and once again were told the tables are for paying customers, - Makes sense

They stayed there for 15 mins and then police arrived.- That is a long time to hold up a valuable table that paying customers can't use.

The police asked them 3 times to leave, they refused, - Those are combative stubborn people.

They were then arrested, - What choice did the cops have, should they just let assholes take over where ever they feel.

Later to be released with no charges pressed by Starbucks

Now the women who made the her professional/subjective decisions no longer has a job.
.


Did the guys ever once say "we are just waiting for a friend, we want to buy him a coffee and will order then"?

Starbucks' goal is to create a "third place" experience, meaning, a place aside from your home or place of work you go to meet friends, read, relax, whatever. That's in their own words, they are selling this "third place" experience, not coffee. If I went in to a Starbucks and was harrassed for taking too long to order something I'd be pretty pissed. Especially if I explained that I was waiting for other members of my party to arrive.


I don't know about you. But I find if people just stick to the basic rules and understand them there is a lot less anarchy, and people crying foul, making a more relaxing environment. This will be interesting how all this plays out, as the CEO bends over to all the perpetually victims demands..
I love watching the left eat themselves. I just think it is sad a woman manager lost her job for following the rules, maybe she can get a job at Chic-Fillet.


Not sure that Starbucks' "rules" dictate that you should call 911 within minutes of two black men sitting at a table waiting for a friend.

Some details emerging:

http://money.cnn.com/...ladelphia/index.html

We also don't know that the manager was fired, though even if not, she was probably encouraged to find alternative employment.

Disclaimer: I have only read the story, not watched the video of their interview, and recognise we have not heard the manager's side of the story. For instance, apart from telling them only customers could use the bathroom, what other words were exchanged?

ETA: Having now watched the interview, it does seem that they gave no intent on purchasing any products. They admit the manager came to ask them if they wanted to make a purchase, even a water. They said no, they were good and had their own water. So then the question is, a) what is Starbucks' policy on people being in their stores without making a purchase (the men claim Starbucks' website encourages its stores to be used as meeting points, but do they say you don't have to make a purchase)?, and b) did the manager ask them to leave on the basis that they were not showing an intent to make a purchase?

It seems this could easily have been avoided with better communication, and it's clear it was unnecessarily escalated.
Last edited by: Kay Serrar: Apr 19, 18 9:32
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Re: Racial tolerance [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Fair enough.

I literally pass through there only on occasion and know that it's nice. Don't want to pretend that I'm completely colorblind, but I hadn't really noticed the color of the people there other than being whiter than most parts of the city.

Don't know if that means 60% white or 98% white.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Racial tolerance [Leddy] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, lets revisit this. Its looking like my original statement was correct. I looked at each block surrounding the Square, and they are between 0% - 1.8% black.

http://www.energyjustice.net/...843513&giZoom=12

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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Re: Racial tolerance [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I wouldn't argue the residents there are predominately white. I would argue it would be common to not see black people there More importantly for anyone in that area to question a black person in the area. Unless again they were racists at heart.

My in laws have rented to a lot of post grad students or med students. I know they have had tenants who are white and black as well as foreign students. Their tenets also sublet when not in school.

"I think I've cracked the code. double letters are cheaters except for perfect squares (a, d, i, p and y). So Leddy isn't a cheater... "
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Re: Racial tolerance [getcereal] [ In reply to ]
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There is a major piece you are glossing over. There were white customers doing the same thing.

That's kind of what discrimination is: when you apply one set of rules to one race, but a different set of rules to a different race.



Quote:
Well in this case, the supervisor used her professional/reasonable judgement) followed the rules and was fired for it. The two who in my opinion were being very unreasonable!
From what I heard they-
Wanted to use the rest room, but were told 'no the restrooms are paying customers'. - Seems reasonable, they could of easily bought a cup of coffee for the privilege.

Then they sat down at a table, and once again were told the tables are for paying customers, - Makes sense

They stayed there for 15 mins and then police arrived.- That is a long time to hold up a valuable table that paying customers can't use.

The police asked them 3 times to leave, they refused, - Those are combative stubborn people.

They were then arrested, - What choice did the cops have, should they just let assholes take over where ever they feel.

Later to be released with no charges pressed by Starbucks

Now the women who made the her professional/subjective decisions no longer has a job.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Racial tolerance [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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There is still more to this story that will never be dug out because this is the kind of story the current press loves.

whole thing smells of a complete setup to me.
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Re: Racial tolerance [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Let me straighten the record here a little.

1.) I'm not annoyed by these men talking about their experience, or by news media reporting on it. Like I said, this is news.
2.) I might have done the exact same thing these arrested black men did if I perceived the manager's reasoning was race based.
3.) My news reference had nothing to do with the "talk about it or not talk about it" game you describe.
4.) My news reference went to the fact that a relatively uncommon event was used to push the narrative that we have a pervasive racism problem (or worse).

In the grand scheme of things these guys were asked not to loiter while on Starbucks property, and they refused to comply with either Starbucks management or the police. The facts are still out on this, but even if we grant that there was a component of racial bias in this manager's decision making process, the men where never prosecuted for their intransigence, the public outcry from all races was huge, the manager was immediately removed from her job, all Starbucks stores are closing down a day for racial bias therapy sessions, and both men were meeting with the CEO of the multi-billion dollar company within the week.

And yet the Guardian's take is this: "A Starbucks arrest shows how black Americans are robbed of their power."

You wrote "black people have to deal with racism, all the time". I assume this was in the context of my post. Is this your way of saying that the extent of racism against blacks in America can never be overstated?
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Re: Racial tolerance [SH] [ In reply to ]
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There is a black comedian that went into his local starbucks asking for free coffee as reparations.. he got it.

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/man-gets-free-reparations-coffee/
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Re: Racial tolerance [SH] [ In reply to ]
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Three points:

-1,2,&3 show a complete lack of reading comprehension.

-your argument boils down to "anything can mean anything" and then you just decide what you want to believe

- I am reminded why I normally have your posts hidden

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
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Re: Racial tolerance [spntrxi] [ In reply to ]
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spntrxi wrote:
There is a black comedian that went into his local starbucks asking for free coffee as reparations.. he got it.

https://www.westernjournal.com/ct/man-gets-free-reparations-coffee/

Talk about a no win situation. Give the man his coffee and you are later mocked as a dupe. Don't give the man a coffee and fear for the social media storm that might follow. While I get what the guy was doing to make a kinda funny point, it was a pretty crappy thing to do to whoever happened to be working when he went to ask.
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