I know everyone says it as a joke but personally your saddle does look too high to me. Apart from that it doesn't look too bad.

Don't buy a bike based on that fit.
Saddle much too high, which means your Pad Y higher than it needs to be
Aerobars not set up for maximum relaxation either.
You need to go back to the fitter and ask them to at least get your knee and ankle angles into the ranges that retul specify. Then preferably try different extensions and tilt the bars up a bit.

forgive me, but this should read "in the ranges a competent fitter would recommend"

Retul is just a ruler.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

it looks like his right leg is shorter than his left leg

What is the range? 140° to 155°? More or less?

Thanks

those numbers are descriptive, not prescriptive

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

depends on who you are. if you're me, descriptive. if you're retul, prescriptive.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

1. seat's too high.
2. bars are too high because the seat's too high.
3. still, even if the seat was correct, that 672mm number seems unreasonably tall.
4. i assume your pad x is to pad rear (based on the number, and on the picture).
5. i'd like to have pad elevation, down from saddle, just to check that 672mm number.
6. fix the fit first, then we'll prescribe the right bike. just based on averages i'd assume a fit and healthy guy like you would be riding down closer to 610mm or 600mm of pad y and with 20mm or more of pad x. but, these are just raw guesses.
7. i'd like to know who makes that fit bike. can you ask your fitter?

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Thanks to everyone for review!

After getting report from fitter few days ago, and knowing my average build, good flexibility and range of montions without long legs or short torso .. and height of 172 cm, and checking slowtwich forum and other web resources about stack, I became puzzled a bit.
To my non professional observation stack of 672 is rather for tall guys theoretically riding larger bikes (upper limit M or L frame sizes).

I will need to do another fit.

Here is some data about hip and keen angles taking from my retul report:

Hip Angle Closed 49 '
Hip Angle Open 98 '
Hip Angle Range 49 '

Knee Angle Flexion 106 '
KneeAngle 33'
Extension KneeAngle Range 73 '

not really, almost equal, maybe few milliliters.

I was working on the basis that asking the fitter to follow the Retul prescription is the best you can hope for in this case.

If I'd based the suggestion on competence angles would barely come in to it, using a 3D Motion Capture tool and fixating on angles is missing nearly all of the value.

of course, that's the point I was making too.

---

Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

Afternoon,


Finally managed to book fit appointment and re do it. I would appreciate a lot your help, guys, and guidance on what to look and ask during fit session this week. Fit is going to be done by the same fitter on jig with retul.


From what I read so far, I have to watch:
- Saddle height - as it appears to be high.
- Aerobars position
@cyclenutnz - What do you mean by " Aerobars not set up for maximum relaxation either. " How should this be set up?
- Angles:
Do my current angles looks ok, of what is the optimum competent and professional fitter recommends?


Here is some data about right side hip and keen angles taking from my retul report:

Hip Angle Closed 49 '
Hip Angle Open 98 '
Hip Angle Range 49 '

Knee Angle Flexion 106 '
KneeAngle 33'
Extension KneeAngle Range 73 '
Hip-Shoulder-Wrist 116 °

Thanks,
Stan

body angles will not be actionable for you. pardon the freehand scribble, but here are 2 riders with the same body angles:



they yield very different positions, supported by very different bikes. body angles are internally congruent. there is no congruence to the horizon. if you flip a beetle on his back and watch his legs, they perform the same way as they do when he's right side up. the beetle's body angles are the same. but he's not going very far.

were i a retail fitter, i would never show body angles to the subject. they mean nothing. fit coordinates mean something.

unfortunately a lot of fitters are trained to honor body angles during fitting, but are not trained in how to relate body angles to the horizon, and how to then translate these to a proper position and a properly prescribed bike. cyclenutnz is one of those who can. others? not so much.

give us fit coordinates. we're much more likely to help you if we have these. and a video.

---

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Hi Dan,

1)
I finally managed to get time and do re fit with the same bike fitter. Fitter agreed that my saddle position was high and after closer analyse confirmed that my hips were rocking, so lowered. Because of my right leg domination I am more compensative with it over left leg. Fitter told me that he cannot lower saddle more as it will have impact on my left / right leg balance. Lowering saddle will sharpener right leg angle that could result in pain later on.

Here is my updated pad y/x:
Arm Pad Stack 660
Arm Pad Reach 447

2)
This week, I did quick session during pop up shimano fit event and fitter came up with the following:
Body height 172 cm

Torso height: 1425 mm
Left arm: left shoulder: 1420 / left hand: 790 / left elbow: 1050 / left hand: 780
Right arm: right shoulder: 1425 / right hand: 790 / right elbow: 1050 / right hand: 780

Inseam: 835 mm
Saddle height: 735 mm

Arm Pad Stack 650
Arm Pad Reach 420
Unfortunately, I do not have photos or videos of above, but I attach pdf report.

I am a bit confused, as I get now slightly different measurements.


3)
Based on this can you please help me with the frame selection for Giant Trinity adv pro, Argon 18 E119 (I am more leaning towards E119, as I can get good price for frameset), Canyon speedmax CF / CF SLX and Felt IA16.

I have gone through information available on bikes geometry and in my opinion:

- Giant could be tricky to fit: http://www.giantcyclingworld.com/bike.php?id=20181792: looks like size M but I am still above upper stack limit.
- Argon 19 E119: I am between S and M size. Which one would you recommend? https://www.argon18bike.com/...tt-a18-2018-v3-2.pdf
- Canyon CF: looks like size S: https://www.canyon.com/...dmax-cf-8-0-di2.html
- Canyon CF SLX - on stack I am more M but reach is slightly longer: https://www.canyon.com/...x-cf-slx-8-0-sl.html
- Felt AI16 - I am 54 or 56 : http://www.feltbicycles.com/...ces/Bike-Sizing.aspx

Thanks!

Note that I took 40mm off pad to convert to rear of pad measurement.
Canyone CF SLX and Giant Trinity Advanced Pro won't fit you.
Argon still haven't provided any info for the E119 so I can't give results for that.

I'd suggest you not go for a super bike, they're too hard to adjust. You're going to need to get an easy to adjust bike and keep developing your position yourself as I still don't think your fitters have done very well for you.

Hi Cyclenutnz,

Thank you for your guidance.
I removed Giant Trinity Pro and Canyon SLX CF from my list.

Mortal bikes I should look at are Canyon CF size S and Felt IA16-10 in size 54, am I right?

Regarding E119 provided sizing chat, I am pretty much on the board of S and M:
size S: Saddle Height 71-74 / Top Tube 50.3 / Pads: at center of elbow pad max / min stack 670 - 570, center of elbow pad max min: 515 - 425
size M: Saddle Height 74-78 / Top Tube 51.7 / Pads: at center of elbow pad max / min stack 685 - 585, center of elbow pad max min: 525 - 435.
handle bar offers +/- 2.5 cm

I agree that fitter could have done better job, but this is what I have and I am not coming back to re do it. Say, the misjudge on stack, saddle goes down by few cm, thus stack changes from current 660 to lower number. Should look to size S as it fits me better and allow achieve better aero position without sacrificing power?

What are the pros and cons of going smaller or bigger size?

Yes, both the IA and Speedmax CF would have 40mm of spacers under the pads so there is plenty of room to drop the bars

I don't know how fine the adjustment on the E119 is, nor how easy it is to adjust. It may be better to look at an E117. However, this is where we run into a bit of an issue with not having a good position to base the search on. The E117 is tall, which is good for the position coordinates you have, but may not be so great for the future. Though I don't think the medium would limit you for the future unless you embark on an aggressive position development plan. You would need to change the stock bars.

Bigger size can mean the frame is more aero (it does for the Felt) and will mean it is more stable in the aerobars. Small gives you more room to go down in future. If we're looking at bikes with ~520mm frame stack you currently need 140mm of cockpit stack and it is possible to get down to ~55mm of cockpit stack with high end bars or ~70mm with clipons so you will have plenty of room to go down on pretty much any frame.

Managed to get report from the latest bike re fit. Full report with pictures attached. Struggling upload video.
Pad Y/X - 666 / 447
Saddle height - 737mm
Saddle set back - 5mm
Eff. Seat tube angle - 79 deg

Fitter's recommendation size M for Argon 18 E119 and size M for Canyon Speedmax CF.


I am leaning towards E119 as it readily available but only in size S, if I opt for M I need to wait for 4 weeks at least. For Canyon waiting time is about 2-2.5 months.

Looking at the E119 geometry S and M frames are not so much different (as per attached file).
What is your opinion on me getting S rather M? I attach left and right side photos. I hope it will help.


Thanks