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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [NUFCrichard] [ In reply to ]
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Not trolling.... only been in the endurance game a few years doing sprint tris and a few 5k races.
Because of that, don’t really know what VDOT means... but I have ran 2 half marathons, but a couple of years before the 19: 5k...and it was a depleted pukefest at the finish.

Main reason for 3 gels an hour was what I read...approximately 75gms carbs per hour...just didn’t want to blow up because of nutrition.

Training was all running and only walking for 30 seconds every 20 minutes to suck down a gel and some water.

And as I said, think I seriously underestimated how much more damaging to the body outside running was past the 2 hour mark.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [walie] [ In reply to ]
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Agreed on all fronts!!! Hindsight is 20/20!

But, I didn’t approach it arrogantly, but apparently ignorantly!
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [scyharris] [ In reply to ]
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I don't believe running on a treadmill does a good job of simulating running outdoors. Think about it, when you run outdoors, you are moving your entire body mass forward, up the hills and down the hills. Your center of gravity is moving forward. Your legs are driving the while mass forward, pushing against the pavement. On a treadmill, your center of gravity is basically moving only up and down a small amount. Yes, you are working your legs by moving them back and forth, but you are not using them to propel your body (center of gravity) forward. Actually you are only moving them forward, the tread mill is dragging them back.

One winter I concentrated on doing a lot running indoors cause I was tired of the cold weather and had just gotten the treadmill (free) and wanted to use it. When I transitioned to the outdoor, holy cow. I was very disappointed. It took a while to get back up to speed.

I would use the treadmill only as a last resort. Yes, it's better than nothing.

Oh, and raising the incline....don't think you are running up hill. You are just using slightly different muscles and are just lifting your legs a bit higher so you don't trip.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [dave6768] [ In reply to ]
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Tell that to Lionel Sanders.


Also, that 'you're not climbing a hill' thing is wayyyy too old to be repeated. Just go set your TM on a 10% incline and report back that it's not working you any harder or doesn't feel like you're running up a hill.
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 28, 18 16:49
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [dave6768] [ In reply to ]
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You should read before saying patently false statements...

Metabolic cost:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/8887211/

Biomechanics:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/18460996/
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [dave6768] [ In reply to ]
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dave6768 wrote:
I don't believe running on a treadmill does a good job of simulating running outdoors. Think about it, when you run outdoors, you are moving your entire body mass forward, up the hills and down the hills. Your center of gravity is moving forward. Your legs are driving the while mass forward, pushing against the pavement. On a treadmill, your center of gravity is basically moving only up and down a small amount. Yes, you are working your legs by moving them back and forth, but you are not using them to propel your body (center of gravity) forward. Actually you are only moving them forward, the tread mill is dragging them back.

One winter I concentrated on doing a lot running indoors cause I was tired of the cold weather and had just gotten the treadmill (free) and wanted to use it. When I transitioned to the outdoor, holy cow. I was very disappointed. It took a while to get back up to speed.

I would use the treadmill only as a last resort. Yes, it's better than nothing.

Oh, and raising the incline....don't think you are running up hill. You are just using slightly different muscles and are just lifting your legs a bit higher so you don't trip.

There are a lot of good workouts you can do on a treadmill, I wouldn't have a problem using it 90% of the time (I don't) but I would want to do some runs outdoors just to confirm I'm on target.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Per] [ In reply to ]
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Per wrote:
Just one data point that illustrates that temperature matters.

Amen to all this. People forget that a long race usually gets warmer as it goes on. I love cold races that stay cold.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [TriguyBlue] [ In reply to ]
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TriguyBlue wrote:

Really depends on his 5-10k speed and if the goal time was a stretch or not.
if he's a 25min 5ker than the training was too low, closer to a 20min 5k runner than it should be no problem on 40k per week.

Agree with this ^^^^

Trained for my first marathon (during which I hit my 5k PR of 19:50) and then Boston with the following weekly mileage -
Training Totals for 16 Weeks Leading up to Boston -

Week 1 - 1.5 miles
Week 2 - 16.38 miles
Week 3 - 17 miles
Week 4 - 20.77 miles

Week 5 - 22.59 miles
Week 6 - 24.43 miles
Week 7 - 26 miles
Week 8 - 16.87 miles

Week 9 - 27.72 miles
Week 10 - 21.25 miles
Week 11 - 43.71 miles
Week 12 - 36 miles

Week 13 - 43.25 miles
Week 14 - 35.25 miles
Week 15 - 21.16 miles + 4/12
Week 16 ... race

First marathon = 3:16:02
Second marathon (Boston) = 3:16:06

I really crapped it out but again agree with above... It is doable on lower mileage if you have the speed to begin with.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [gwaveswims] [ In reply to ]
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gwaveswims wrote:
TriguyBlue wrote:


Really depends on his 5-10k speed and if the goal time was a stretch or not.
if he's a 25min 5ker than the training was too low, closer to a 20min 5k runner than it should be no problem on 40k per week.


Agree with this ^^^^

Trained for my first marathon (during which I hit my 5k PR of 19:50) and then Boston with the following weekly mileage -
Training Totals for 16 Weeks Leading up to Boston -

Week 1 - 1.5 miles
Week 2 - 16.38 miles
Week 3 - 17 miles
Week 4 - 20.77 miles

Week 5 - 22.59 miles
Week 6 - 24.43 miles
Week 7 - 26 miles
Week 8 - 16.87 miles

Week 9 - 27.72 miles
Week 10 - 21.25 miles
Week 11 - 43.71 miles
Week 12 - 36 miles

Week 13 - 43.25 miles
Week 14 - 35.25 miles
Week 15 - 21.16 miles + 4/12
Week 16 ... race

First marathon = 3:16:02
Second marathon (Boston) = 3:16:06

I really crapped it out but again agree with above... It is doable on lower mileage if you have the speed to begin with.


Good for you but you are def farrrrr the exception rather than the norm. Most marathoners run more than you and come nowhere near a 3:16, even if they can run a 5k faster than you. (I fall in that category).

It's def possible, but unlikely that someone else will be able to pull it off on that low a mileage unless their 19:50 5k was a real sandbag job, like out of shape or not at all near their real trained capability. That said, I'm sure the guys with 2:40 marathon talent can def do this, no problem, but they're less than top 1% of all runners. (I knew an ex-pro cyclist who ran 2:58s after doing similarly <25mpw training for 2 months prior to the race, then he'd be wrecked for a few months after the marathon.)
Last edited by: lightheir: Mar 29, 18 11:36
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [scyharris] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry, could help but notice ALL the advice in your post. There's a maxim coaches use that goes like this: "Ask 100 coaches, get 200 different answers." It's even worse when you ask 100 amateurs who think they're coaches. My advice, get A (as in 1) coach who will train you dynamically (vs statically). Without proper data (which you haven't really provided here), no one is in a position to give you good advice. For example, no one has even asked for your detailed HR data. Did you suffer HR decoupling (likely - and why?) I saw someone say it wasn't nutrition but I sure as hell wouldn't run anyone on that nutrition plan.

Want to perform well and be injured less, get a coach. A good coach only costs a few hundred a month and you only need them for a few months. $ well spent.

My $.02. Good luck!

Scott

Scott Fricks, President
Virgin Islands Triathlon
USAT & FM Tri Level I, USAT Youth & Junior, ITU Level II Triathlon Coach
USAT Certified Race Director
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Sfricks] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting marketing approach.

1. Come on ST and disparage advice offered by others.
2. Don't offer any advice of your own.
3. Recommend that they spend $1000 (several hundred $$ for several months) on a coach.

FOR A FRIGGIN MARATHON with a $100 entry free. Seriously?

The guy used the "free" program that came with the marathon. Does that sound like a guy whose looking to drop a grand on a coach?
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Not marketing, not taking any new athletes (just an FYI). Just hate to see really bad advice given and there's just too much of it here. Rather than ask your mechanic about your kidney function just seems prudent to ask your doctor :). Will you pay more, of course but your kidneys won't need an oil change :)

Scott Fricks, President
Virgin Islands Triathlon
USAT & FM Tri Level I, USAT Youth & Junior, ITU Level II Triathlon Coach
USAT Certified Race Director
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Sfricks] [ In reply to ]
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Sfricks wrote:
Sorry, could help but notice ALL the advice in your post. There's a maxim coaches use that goes like this: "Ask 100 coaches, get 200 different answers." It's even worse when you ask 100 amateurs who think they're coaches. My advice, get A (as in 1) coach who will train you dynamically (vs statically). Without proper data (which you haven't really provided here), no one is in a position to give you good advice. For example, no one has even asked for your detailed HR data. Did you suffer HR decoupling (likely - and why?) I saw someone say it wasn't nutrition but I sure as hell wouldn't run anyone on that nutrition plan.

Want to perform well and be injured less, get a coach. A good coach only costs a few hundred a month and you only need them for a few months. $ well spent.

My $.02. Good luck!

Scott


Seriously... I need to find a new job.. apparently I'm a poor chump.
Last edited by: IvarAlmere: Mar 30, 18 6:06
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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And really, if you aren't looking to take down records, some reading (for running, I like Pfitzinger, Daniels, and Hudson's books) and plenty of honest assessment and reflection will allow you to structure your own plan and set realistic goals for years without dropping hundreds of dollars.

Full disclosure, I do have a coach, but it's almost more of a partnership at this point and it's a benefit of my running club so a fantastic deal and that's a situation I would always recommend if someone has access to a good club with reputable coaches. I love thinking about and structuring training, he's been coaching runners longer than I've been alive, so I get a good mix of knowing my boundaries and setting my own day to day routine, with some great suggestions that I would have overlooked on my own and an outside perspective to reel me in if I'm getting overzealous with races or workouts.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Sfricks] [ In reply to ]
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Sfricks wrote:
Not marketing, not taking any new athletes (just an FYI). Just hate to see really bad advice given and there's just too much of it here. Rather than ask your mechanic about your kidney function just seems prudent to ask your doctor :). Will you pay more, of course but your kidneys won't need an oil change :)


Fine. You're not taking any new athletes.

So, now its impossible for the average Joe to run a 4 hour Marry without the services of a $300 / month coach? Are you really comparing and endurance coach to a kidney surgeon?

You still have offered nothing of substance, except vague criticism of (some or all of---even that isn't clear) the advice offered by others who actually ARE trying to be helpful. If you've got something more useful to say, then why don't you do so? You haven't even been specific enough to give the OP an idea of WHERE to look, or what advice was more suspect/on-target. You have literally done NOTHING to be helpful if the OP is unable to spend the money you suggest.

In your mind, there's no room for something between NOTHING useful, and a $300/month dynamic coaching relationship?

No one expects you to give away your secrets for free on the internets. But they was I see it, so far your posts has been the opposite of helpful. They've only created MORE confusion---rather than give the OP any kind of idea about where to look, assuming that he is unable to afford a coach. Not everyone considers $1000-$1500 a modest sum of money.

ETA: I have no issue with paid coaches such as yourself remaining silent or choosing which threads they wish to offer a free nugget here or there, as it is their/your livelihood. Thus far, all have refrained from this thread. I just think, that if you're going to jump in and criticize EVERYONE who IS trying to help...then be, at least, somewhat helpful yourself.
Last edited by: Tom_hampton: Mar 30, 18 10:00
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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Please un-wod your underwear for a second. You're missing my point entirely. I'm a high performance coach and even I don't have enough information to comment. I'm suggesting without a coach gathering more information, everyone else is just guessing just like I would be.

I have hundreds of case studies supporting inexpensive coaching. A recent example: A female colleague of mine recently coached a high-level chronically injured athlete and for 3 months at $225/m was able to take her to an uninjured marathon PR. She had been training and running marathons for 13 year, was stuck at her pace and chronically injured. She'll likely never be injured again because she stopped following all the crappy advice she was getting AND she'll never have to pay for coaching again.

My suggestion is that athletes interview coaches like they would any other professional and ask not necessarily for a training plan but an overall plan of action as well as what kind of timeframe they can expect to need the coach's services. Look at the ST coaches directory. I bet there are dozens that will do video analysis and dynamic coaching on TrainingPeaks for less than $200/m. A good 16 week plan can pay a lifetime of dividends.

So, in summary, I'm not qualified to comment based on what I see. Those who believe they are qualified are the kidney function mechanics.

EDITED: I could guess like everyone else but seriously, how would that help?

Scott Fricks, President
Virgin Islands Triathlon
USAT & FM Tri Level I, USAT Youth & Junior, ITU Level II Triathlon Coach
USAT Certified Race Director
Last edited by: Sfricks: Mar 30, 18 10:16
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [Sfricks] [ In reply to ]
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Sfricks wrote:
Sorry, could help but notice ALL the advice in your post. There's a maxim coaches use that goes like this: "Ask 100 coaches, get 200 different answers." It's even worse when you ask 100 amateurs who think they're coaches. My advice, get A (as in 1) coach who will train you dynamically (vs statically). Without proper data (which you haven't really provided here), no one is in a position to give you good advice. For example, no one has even asked for your detailed HR data. Did you suffer HR decoupling (likely - and why?) I saw someone say it wasn't nutrition but I sure as hell wouldn't run anyone on that nutrition plan.

Want to perform well and be injured less, get a coach. A good coach only costs a few hundred a month and you only need them for a few months. $ well spent.

My $.02. Good luck!

Scott


I disagree that you NEED a coach to do well at marathons. It's honestly not that hard to figure it out, but it does take time. Hearing from the many experienced folks on the forums is suepr valuable for teaching you a lot about what can work and what probably isn't a good idea, even if it isn't totally specific to your situation right now. ALthough I'd argue that reading a good marathon book + forums is a lot better.


I will STRONGLY argue in the case of the OP here, that it's absolutely, 100% NOT complicated. In fact, the OPs situation pretty describes a picture-perfect, 100% expected late-game meltdown from a typical first-time ambitious marathoner who thinks their decent triathlon cardio will carry them to the finish, and learns the hard way that training on 31mpw avg as well as starting the first half faster than the target "A" race pace, will invariably lead to walking a lot of the last third of the race.

You don't need a coaching degree to figure that out, and you don't need to know about his HR uncoupling - dude was walking well before the end - it doesn't matter what his HR was doing, his legs just couldn't handle the 26.2 mile race distance at pace. It's a picture perfect rookie first marathon, down to the "T", no mystery whatsoever.

The solution is simple, and as prescribed by most of the posters above - build to more overall mileage per week on a gradual training plan ,and start slower to target a negative split (which will almost invariably never happen.) Any coach worth their salt would nail these two points as by farrrrr the most significant factors to improve a LOT.

The OP can start looking for pricey coaches once they've done the basics (he hasn't even read a 'real' marathon training book, clearly), has started to plateau at his physical performance, and start needing to pay close attention to the finer details of training to squeeze out that last 5%.

At this point though, it's all about FOREST, not trees.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:


I disagree that you NEED a coach to do well at marathons. It's honestly not that hard to figure it out, but it does take time. Hearing from the many experienced folks on the forums is suepr valuable for teaching you a lot about what can work and what probably isn't a good idea, even if it isn't totally specific to your situation right now. ALthough I'd argue that reading a good marathon book + forums is a lot better.


I will STRONGLY argue in the case of the OP here, that it's absolutely, 100% NOT complicated. In fact, the OPs situation pretty describes a picture-perfect, 100% expected late-game meltdown from a typical first-time ambitious marathoner who thinks their decent triathlon cardio will carry them to the finish, and learns the hard way that training on 31mpw avg as well as starting the first half faster than the target "A" race pace, will invariably lead to walking a lot of the last third of the race.

You don't need a coaching degree to figure that out, and you don't need to know about his HR uncoupling - dude was walking well before the end - it doesn't matter what his HR was doing, his legs just couldn't handle the 26.2 mile race distance at pace. It's a picture perfect rookie first marathon, down to the "T", no mystery whatsoever.

The solution is simple, and as prescribed by most of the posters above - build to more overall mileage per week on a gradual training plan ,and start slower to target a negative split (which will almost invariably never happen.) Any coach worth their salt would nail these two points as by farrrrr the most significant factors to improve a LOT.

The OP can start looking for pricey coaches once they've done the basics (he hasn't even read a 'real' marathon training book, clearly), has started to plateau at his physical performance, and start needing to pay close attention to the finer details of training to squeeze out that last 5%.

At this point though, it's all about FOREST, not trees.


Yes, this is pretty much the best summary of the entire issue. It's not rocket science and even non-coaches like the ST audience can nail this type of advice (the horror!) I agree with NUFCrichard who noted that he has a solid vdot of 52 at 5k and he has the capacity to go much faster with adequate training (volume and pacing) but did not nail it on race day at all.

I started running when I was 40 and have never been able to personally bring my mileage up enough to have close to equal vdots across the short and long distances. I'm a fast twitch guy and my mile/5K times were always better than my distance vdots. Daniel's says that with appropriate training, read-appropriate VOLUME, that you will get close to equal performance along a vdot effort. I didn't achieve equality at all- 5:23 mile time at age 47 with a full year of speedwork (vdot=55) and 3:16 marathon (vdot 49) at age 45 with only a few years of volume-40>70mpw. Still low, but I'm an old guy.

And we're not even talking about all the other things (besides pacing) that can cause a blow up on race day-nutrition/hydration/weather etc. You never get to decouple when you are bonked. Don't pay for a coach-learn for yourself. Read Daniel's book and get feedback from runners. You can learn a lot, as I did.

It also doesn't mean that I don't still remember those marathoners running past me at mile 22 of my first marathon at VCM as I was walking back towards town...Oh, yeah, I lived the OP's lesson as have many of us here in the back seat...
Last edited by: dtoce: Mar 30, 18 14:06
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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There is no doubt that raising the incline to 10% will give a tougher workout. It's tougher only because you have to lift your legs higher, not because your are moving your entire mass up an actual 10% incline. Go run an actual 10% incline on a road and see which workout is way tougher.

Don't get me wrong, a workout on the treadmill is better than nothing, but it's not 100% the same.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [dave6768] [ In reply to ]
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dave6768 wrote:
There is no doubt that raising the incline to 10% will give a tougher workout. It's tougher only because you have to lift your legs higher, not because your are moving your entire mass up an actual 10% incline. Go run an actual 10% incline on a road and see which workout is way tougher.

Don't get me wrong, a workout on the treadmill is better than nothing, but it's not 100% the same.

Nope, you're def wrong on this one. Running on 10% incline on a TM is every bit as hard as running it outside. Yes, I do it on a regular basis, so I know it physically to be true.

It's NOT just because you are doing higher knee raises on each stride on the incline.

In fact, your legs go trivially higher on a 10% grade than they do in real world - nowhere near enough to explain the monster effort you need to keep up the pace at 10% compared to the same pace at 0%.

Some physics guy can chime in here about 'frame of reference' to make the point with physics.
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [scyharris] [ In reply to ]
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The day brings what it does.

I only started doing some serious running 10 years ago at age 50 when I became involved in tri... Up till then I was a 2-3 times a week jogger who wondered what it would be like to 'run' 5 miles! That seemed so far...

This is also my 1st ST post so be kind to me.

But I find it interesting the focus on weekly mileage by almost everyone here... I personally look at time as a better training method for my long distance events... If you can run a marathon in 3 hours, and I can run a marathon in 4 hours, we both complete the 26.2 miles, but I have an extra hour of beating on my legs! Just because you run 40/50/60 mpw it's insane to think I should keep up with your mileage. That's a tremendous amount of extra accumulated fatigue on my poor body!

Now what went wrong in your race? Here's my opinion without knowing you better... You're 45! haha... At 6' 185, that's a bmi of 25? I'm also 6' and have been 185.. I've also been 215... I now float between 170-175 off season and will get close to 165 for the main event...

You might be able to lose a few pounds.

You're 45... nuff said. Good news here is that this was only your 1st mary... You know what to expect next time and you will improve if you train properly for it...

Training on the treadmill is fine... Do set the incline up. I personally just go up .5 - 1%... The treadmill is great for speed work and hill simulation... Just boring as fuck on the long runs. (good for mental toughness though)

If you didn't get sick to the tummy, nutrition was probably ok. You had a plan with the gels, trained that way. All's good.

That pretty much boils it down to the training plan... A good plan will have a good mix of volume and intensity... If you trained at race pace for the majority of your runs, you pretty much set yourself up for the results you got... You say you got to 20 miles in your training. At race pace?.. In the race you got to mi 15(?) before the wheels started falling off. Yep. That's what you trained for.

Long runs should be slow... 1-2 mins slower then your race pace goal. (Zone 2) You're stressing the legs, not your cardio system... Your speed/tempo sessions should fast. (Zone 4-5)... You should avoid spending much time training at race pace. All that gets you is what you got. Don't fixate on weekly mileage... Focus on time... Let the youngsters put in them insane weeks...
Last edited by: TommyTris: Mar 30, 18 18:06
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Re: Ran first marathon and am crushed!! Advice needed... [dave6768] [ In reply to ]
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dave6768 wrote:
There is no doubt that raising the incline to 10% will give a tougher workout. It's tougher only because you have to lift your legs higher, not because your are moving your entire mass up an actual 10% incline. Go run an actual 10% incline on a road and see which workout is way tougher.

Don't get me wrong, a workout on the treadmill is better than nothing, but it's not 100% the same.
It’s the same**. For homework you can explain why riding a bike on an inclined treadmill is also the same as riding the equivalent slope outside. If you get stuck there’s a long thread buried in the ST archives.

Edit: ** For a treadmill that maintains a constant speed while in use.
Last edited by: gregf83: Mar 31, 18 3:06
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