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Re: New Canyon Grail [mjp202] [ In reply to ]
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mjp202 wrote:
hiro11 wrote:
Gravel bikes have turned me into a retrogrouch. After riding many gravel events for the past several years and putting in a few thousand miles a year on gravel, I believe a 25 year old steel hardtail with a drop bar conversion and semislick tires is likely a better gravel bike than the majority of these increasingly absurd new ones. Tough, comfortable, practical, far cheaper, easier to work on, more stable in loose stuff and likely not a lot slower. The increasingly Rube Goldberg solutions to something that is so simple are getting ridiculous.


http://www.bikeradar.com/us/road/gear/article/gravel-bikes-roadie-revenge-on-mountain-bike-progress-51828/


Having built up my first "gravel bike" based on a MTB hard tail frame...and then swapping those parts over to a Fuji Jari frameset...I have to say that the Jari works MUCH better as an all-around pavement AND dirt bike. The MTB-based geometry was great off-road, but a real dog on the pavement (took a LOT of countersteer input to get it to corner), whereas the lower BB height, and more road-like front end geometry of the Fuji makes it a lot better on the pavement, and is still no slouch in the dirt.

I actually think that article has a dumb premise...but, that's not too surprising from bikeradar. They tend to publish these types of artificial controversy "click-bait" articles fairly often :-/

IMO, the point of a "gravel bike" or "all-road bike" isn't to make the best off-road bike (that's what MTBs are for, duh), which is what that author is trying to take as his premise. The idea is to create something that works well for multi-surface use. It's not going to be the greatest at either extreme, but the way I see it, it's also not going to make me wish I hadn't ridden it to a trail head either.

The way I see it, my choices for riding are:

1. Road bike: Stick to the pavement, or only fairly tame dirt. Take this when I know I'm staying on pavement and want to be able to keep up with my riding friends.
2. MTB: Ride everywhere off-road, but drive to the trail heads because it's such a dog on pavement. It sure is fun on rough, technical trails though.
3. "Gravel" Bike: Ride (nearly) everywhere, including most places I can go on the MTB. Take on long un-supported trips on mixed surfaces. Does double-duty as my daily commuter. "Swiss-Army bike" :-)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Mar 19, 18 9:57
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Re: New Canyon Grail [trail] [ In reply to ]
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trail wrote:
Thorax wrote:
The bike is hilarious, as is the notion that there really is a need to keep Gravel and Cyclocross markets separated. We really need one of each.

I think it's OK to market them separately. There is after all, a pretty big space between racing all-out for an hour in relatively benign conditions (not to minimize giant mud and water pits) and full mountain-biking. For example, off-road touring or more extreme conditions than you'd find on a CX course.

The Fuji Jari, Cannondale Slate are examples. Way more bosses, room for 650b, heavier frames.

I don't think some companies are doing a very good job. This Grail doesn't seem to distinguish itself very well from the InFlite CX bike. Except for the bars, of course.
As long as people keep going for it they'd be fools not to do it. But why wouldn't a Cyclocross frame be completely adequate for gravel as well? Divide it into two categories of equipment choices for how extreme the end use will be and there you go.
Their Inflite AL used to be that plus, with a specific version, commuter ready. Go figure.

Occasionally you'll see articles about "do it all" bikes and it's pretty clear that we've reached that point. A carefully chosen "whatever you want to call it" bike is perfectly adequate for road training, gravel, cyclocross and even commuting if you so desire, maybe just needing a wheel change. Of course that wouldn't help brands sell their 20 models but hey.
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Re: New Canyon Grail [misc] [ In reply to ]
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sebo2000 wrote:
As per DCrainmaker request, he needs space for at list 20 more computers. We could all use some space for few backup devices as well.

trail wrote:

Ah, I wouldn't worry, Specialized's lawyers are pretty chill.

i am saving these two for honorable mention. hilarious. thank you.
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Re: New Canyon Grail [dsmallwood] [ In reply to ]
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I think the problem some people have with "gravel bikes" is that there is no one thing that you can point to that makes a given bike a "gravel bike". Models currently labeled as "gravel bikes" can be anything for a steel bikepacking bike with a zillion bosses and room for 3" tires (like that insane Willier) to a very slightly modified carbon race bike (like the Domane Gravel) and everything in between. This is because gravel events and gravel riding cover a wide spectrum from over 200 miles in Kansas flint to mostly pavement to basically mountain biking. It's also because some people want to go fast on a given gravel ride while others want the freedom to explore some more gnarly stuff. Meanwhile, manufacturers haven't yet figured out what people actually want and are slapping the "gravel" tag on everything. Regardless of these labels, the great thing here is that this explosion in models has meant that some types of bikes that were only available through custom builders are now widely available. I like that you can walk into a regular shop and buy something like the Salsa Cutthroat, Cannondale Slate or 3T Exploro. Whether or not lots of people actually need bikes like this is irrelevant, at least they're available.
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Re: New Canyon Grail [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Please all laugh at my expense if you want, but I'm actually considering buying a Grail.

My choice at the moment down to two bikes: Canyon Trail or Orbea Terra. They both are within my budget (4k Australian dollars), we have a limited choice here in Australia compared to US.

Help me with my list of pros and cons

Canyon Grail 105
Pros
Looks (I think it's stunning, many will disagree with me)
Paint jobs
Overall quality of components (solid throughout)
Versatility including weight (I plan to use the bike for everything from commuting to fire trails, possibly cross or gravel racing)
Price (600 dollars, including the shipping, less than the Orbea)
Cons
Direct to consumer, and new bar with limited adjustability, and new stack+ and reach+ numbers = difficult to know which size will fit. I'm only 180cm (5.10/5.11) but I have long legs and would be on an Orbea L most likely, Canyon says I should be on an M (178 to 184cm), I currently ride a Cervelo S5 58cms (with a couple of spacers too).
Will they discontinue the Hover in the future? What implications for early buyers?
2x only (I'm on the fence on this one, I think I'd like to try a 1x, but really never had problems with mechanical 2x so why should I want to change?)

Orbea Terra (Rival 1)
Pros
Simplicity of front end for fit adjustment (and replacement if problems, then again I never had problems with bars/stems on other bikes, they last a loooooong time)
Still looks great, but probably more of a road bike that also does well off-road, not as versatile as the Canyon???
Sram Rival 1x (again, on the fence here)
Cons
Price
Some of the components maybe not quite as good? (wheels?)
Looks (I love the Orbea's looks, but the Canyon is something else)

What a first world problem I guess?
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Re: New Canyon Grail [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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I was at the Canyon Belgian Waffle Ride a couple weeks back and saw some Grail bikes there in there element and they were not weird looking at all, the hover bar was something you kind of had to look for.

Granted - there were a lot of weird, trick bikes at that race, from total Frankenbikes, to Cannondale’s with lefty forks and MTB tires to hot rods with deep rims and road tires, it would probably look a little more odd at a Saturday club ride. It took some doing to stand out there...

If you think it checks alll your boxes , go for it. DTC bikes are a fact of life now, just be realistic with your LBS and buy the mechanics some treats... they like to check out new bikes too

" I take my gear out of my car and put my bike together. Tourists and locals are watching from sidewalk cafes. Non-racers. The emptiness of of their lives shocks me. "
(opening lines from Tim Krabbe's The Rider , 1978
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Re: New Canyon Grail [Diabolo] [ In reply to ]
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The problem I would have with the Grail is that it is being sold with the old style 105 levers. I know Shimano has just released the new 105 hydro levers but the aesthetic and ergonomic changes are significant and I wouldn't want to pay for the what are the ugliest and least comfortable hoods I have ever used when the solution is already being phased in. If you could wait for Canyon to start using the current 105 components I would be much more tempted by the Grail.
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Re: New Canyon Grail [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:
The problem I would have with the Grail is that it is being sold with the old style 105 levers

I'm not sure it's fair to call them "old-style" when the new ones aren't even available yet.

But I agree that one thing I'd eventually like to see with direct-to-consumer is a much broader range of selection. If I want a Grail with Force 1x, give me that. Sure there's the (not available yet) frameset, but there's a convenience and OEM discount to buying it all at once.
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Re: New Canyon Grail [scott8888] [ In reply to ]
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scott8888 wrote:

So the bike is less comfortable when your hands are where they are 99% of the time....?


I did a 33 mile gravel ride this weekend. I was on "Large Marge," my trusty 90's era Cannondale Hard Rock aluminum hardtail 26'er. Guy riding alongside me for much of the way was on a new Grail. After about 20 miles, every time we'd get to a fairly smooth, flat section, I'd notice him taking one hand or the other off the hoods and stretching/shaking it out. He was obviously suffering from the buzzies.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jul 9, 18 14:08
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