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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Run #1 - With Front Hydration (including bento and straw): .2721
Run #2 - Remove Front Hydration & bento: .2702
Run #3 - Re-Do Run #1 .2719
Run #4 - Re-Do #2 .2692

Additional:

Lower position with TT stem: .2580
LG P09 v. Rudy Project Wing 57: .2490

My main question is:

Why does someone that's a .25 even aero test?

Accelerate3 Coaching https://accelerate3.com/
Moxie Multisport https://www.themoxiemultisport.com/
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:

Run #1 - With Front Hydration (including bento and straw): .2721
Run #2 - Remove Front Hydration & bento: .2702
Run #3 - Re-Do Run #1 .2719
Run #4 - Re-Do #2 .2692

Additional:

Lower position with TT stem: .2580
LG P09 v. Rudy Project Wing 57: .2490


My main question is:

Why does someone that's a .25 even aero test?

1. We weren't looking for a low CdA, we were looking to test the bike and hydration system.
2. Aero is for everyone. Someone with a .25 is exactly the client I love to work with.
3. A post like that and you publicly wonder why a Tri team wants no part of you? Seriously?

Jim Manton / ERO Sports

Aero Tidbits posted on Instagram & Facebook
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Jim@EROsports and All,


Could be interesting to test a hydration pack under the front of the riders shirt with the straw by the rider's mouth.

In lieu of that ...... for a simulation ..... just stuff a pillow about the size of a 3 liter hydration pack under the front of the jersey for aero comparisons .... should be a snug fit with a smooth shirt.

In the SD LSWT I was measurably more aero with the front hydration pack than without it .... and it does not get much easier to drink on demand.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/?post=6583212#p6583212

Perhaps there is an advantage for pot bellied cyclists .... but for most cyclists the advantage slowly disappears as you 'drink the aero' unless you keep the hydration bladder pressurized.

Dr. Shepard (below) had something else going for him (drugs) .... but his pot belly (other than the weight) was likely making him more aero and faster.



https://pvcycling.wordpress.com/.../12/droopy-mcdongle/

"Anyway, here is how the race unfolded when Dr. Shepard came to race on the track at L.A. and went back to Minnesota crowned Champion of the Entire World of Men of a Certain Age Riding Bicyles, Namely 60-64 Except for Those Who are 59 but Turn 60 in 2017.



That is the link to the 60-64 worlds scratch race. The race is 30 laps, 7.5km. It starts at 4:58:56. One lap to get up to speed and then it’s game on. The perp, Clayton Shepard, is number 389. Mike Hines, a friend of mine and multiple champion, is 371.

Here is Shepard going from the gun and dragging a guy with him. Shepard pulls through too hard and gaps the guy out, who is aero AF to try to get back onto the wheel of this quickly moving cement wall. Shepard is casually looking across the track while pulling solo and checks to see how far he has to go to get around. Because when you are riding that fast on a velodrome you always want to gaze around. Maybe you might know one of the three people in the stands!"

Cheers, Neal

+1 mph Faster
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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So I guess pink font is still necessary.

Personally, I'd very rarely encourage someone to spend hundreds of their dollars on aero testing when they are clearly not going to be punching a small hole in the wind, either because their profile is simply big or because they have some impediment to aero optimization that exists. That can come in many forms.

I also have issues with this idea of short cutting that seems prevalent. Technical skills, transition efficiency, etc all play far bigger roles for most triathletes than whether they are a .23 or a .24. Watching really aero guys go around turns and weave trough traffic and struggle to take in water or gels is ironic, at best. A lack of efficiency through transition can EASILY cost an athlete 1-2mins in an IM. How many watts is that worth on the bike, 10? What they [maybe] gain in aero efficiency they lose hand over fist in a simple like of skill.

But. Those things are harder to learn and take more time than 2hrs at a velodrome or a wind tunnel.

If, however, it was my job to sell tunnel time to athletes then obviously every thing I just said is cynical bullshit and the faster an athlete is in aero the faster an athlete is.

I'd assumed that you've read my posts/cpmments enough to understand when I'm being sarcastic with my reply to you a few posts up but I suppose I can never take that for granted.

Accelerate3 Coaching https://accelerate3.com/
Moxie Multisport https://www.themoxiemultisport.com/
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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So if you're not very aero, you shouldn't bother trying to get more aero? Instead you should work on your transition skills (because if your CdA isn't very low, you must have sucky transitions, right)? That's some superbly helpful advice, right there!

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [gary p] [ In reply to ]
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gary p wrote:
So if you're not very aero, you shouldn't bother trying to get more aero? Instead you should work on your transition skills (because if your CdA isn't very low, you must have sucky transitions, right)? That's some superbly helpful advice, right there!

That's not what I was suggesting.

Accelerate3 Coaching https://accelerate3.com/
Moxie Multisport https://www.themoxiemultisport.com/
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
gary p wrote:
So if you're not very aero, you shouldn't bother trying to get more aero? Instead you should work on your transition skills (because if your CdA isn't very low, you must have sucky transitions, right)? That's some superbly helpful advice, right there!


That's not what I was suggesting.

I look it that way too...

The common argument from *some* around here is that aero doesn't matter if you're slow... or lacking in skills... or whatever, and spending money to get more aero makes no sense if you can just work harder to go faster...

That's dumb

BOTH are important...

Yes, don't get so aero you can't hold it, or take in nutrition, etc.

and don't spend so much time worrying about equipment that you don't train (which includes practicing transitions, and other skills)

But to say you don't need to worry about aerodynamics until you are fast... that's just flat wrong

-Nate
Triathlonpal.com
Flaer|Team Kiwami|Nuun Hydration|Honey Stinger
Twitter: @N8deck
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [triathlonpal] [ In reply to ]
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triathlonpal wrote:

But to say you don't need to worry about aerodynamics until you are fast... that's just flat wrong

It's the elitist mindset in triathlon that will destroy this sport. You can't have a P5-X or P5 unless you are fast, you can't aero test unless you are fast, you can't have this or that unless Slowtwitch approves. How about train hard, show up and race, and buy whatever you want.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [jkhayc] [ In reply to ]
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jkhayc wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:

Run #1 - With Front Hydration (including bento and straw): .2721
Run #2 - Remove Front Hydration & bento: .2702
Run #3 - Re-Do Run #1 .2719
Run #4 - Re-Do #2 .2692

Additional:

Lower position with TT stem: .2580
LG P09 v. Rudy Project Wing 57: .2490


My main question is:

Why does someone that's a .25 even aero test?

to get to .249 of course

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
triathlonpal wrote:


But to say you don't need to worry about aerodynamics until you are fast... that's just flat wrong


It's the elitist mindset in triathlon that will destroy this sport. You can't have a P5-X or P5 unless you are fast, you can't aero test unless you are fast, you can't have this or that unless Slowtwitch approves. How about train hard, show up and race, and buy whatever you want.

Thank you.
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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all jokes aside... James has done more to help people go faster (FOR FREE) on this site than the vast majority of folks on here ever will... I think we can give him a pass on not using the pink font...

My Blog - http://leegoocrap.blogspot.com
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Morelock] [ In reply to ]
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Morelock wrote:
all jokes aside... James has done more to help people go faster (FOR FREE) on this site than the vast majority of folks on here ever will... I think we can give him a pass on not using the pink font...

He has been helpful and I know James personally. My comment was not directed at him but a few others who think they are experts on what triathletes need.

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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BryanD wrote:
triathlonpal wrote:

But to say you don't need to worry about aerodynamics until you are fast... that's just flat wrong

It's the elitist mindset in triathlon that will destroy this sport. You can't have a P5-X or P5 unless you are fast, you can't aero test unless you are fast, you can't have this or that unless Slowtwitch approves. How about train hard, show up and race, and buy whatever you want.

I don't expect anyone fast to have a P5x...
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Essentially the test was this:


  1. Athlete's original position is significantly lower than the Plasma Premium will allow with the Tri stem.
  2. The TT stem does a good job of matching the athlete's fit coordinates, but disallows the use of the integrated hydration & nutrition set up.
The question we wanted to answer was which would be faster: Athlete's best position using the TT stem without the integration hydration, or less optimal position, but use the integrated hydration we believed would lower the bike's drag? In other words, how much would the drag gap close by using the integrated hydration?

The numbers were interesting, and a little surprising, though I don't want to be deceptive; position trumps everything else! Still I wonder if anyone has Plasma Premium numbers they'd like to share, whether it's wind tunnel, velodrome, or outdoor VE testing regarding the integrated hydration system both installed and removed from the bike in the tri set up? I realize that's pretty specific, but I've never seen any numbers posted, and there might be a good reason why. Anyone care to help out?

Edit: Numbers and photos now posted...



Run #1 - With Front Hydration (including bento and straw): .2721
Run #2 - Remove Front Hydration & bento: .2702
Run #3 - Re-Do Run #1 .2719
Run #4 - Re-Do #2 .2692

Straw could be having some effect, but I've tested straws in the tunnel and on the velodrome so many times and they just don't seem to show up in the results with an athlete on the bike. The top of the hydration system could be disrupting airflow a bit. Much cleaner over the stem without it.

Additional:

Lower position with TT stem: .2580
LG P09 v. Rudy Project Wing 57: .2490

Yep, big difference in helmets, but to be fair, we used a med P09 which is a bit small for the athlete, so a large would likely be a watt or two slower. Still, not surprising. Friends don't let friends use Wing 57's; at least without testing first.



its kind of interesting despite saying it differently ie they said the 5 was 7 % faster in with tri stem and aero system and 5 % faster than tt stem than plasma 3
they seem to have come to the same conclusion you mentioned for the new bike.
https://www.scott-sports.com/global/cs/plasma-6

http://www.pb3coaching.com
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Re: Interesting Plasma Premium Aero Test Results - Updated w/Numbers [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
jkhayc wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
3. A post like that and you publicly wonder why a Tri team wants no part of you? Seriously?

LOL, that’s touché!

Jeroen

Owner at TRIPRO, The Netherlands
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