This is his photo from 2017
It appears he has a level seat. Is (via facebook) now on a ISM 3.0 which the company states should be set level or 1-2 degrees downward.

I could be wrong, but that looks like an ISM Attack (or equivalent), which I think would have the same recommendation?

Also the picture in the OP looks like more than 1-2 degrees. 5ish?

I guess we should clarify to, by sloping downward as the saddle itself, or sloping downrails. Not too familiar with ISM these days, I know the JOF slopes a bit down as the rails are level. By slightly up I mean every so slightly, like .01 to .4 degrees. Not talking about anything crazy like 2-10 degrees, although I know of at least one pro that rides with saddle that is firmly digging into his taint and he likes it that way.

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Hmm. Where did that graphic come from? The rails look perfectly horizontal so it looks like they designed the seat to slope at 7-8 degrees.

Stock picture, I added the angle measurement. It's a very comfortable saddle. BTW the tip has a grippy rubber texture designed to keep you locked in.

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What's your CdA?

Doesn't matter how grippy the seat at that angle you're not locked in...

I agree,
I designed my own saddle, it has a hammock in the middle, so makes you feel fully locked in and supported.
I’m not sure my back could deal with a saddle rotated forward.

How do people rotate their pelvis forward if they are unsupported like that?

Agreed. I'm also trying to fathom that people on here say the seat should be angled slightly up? There is a fine line between what is support and not sliding down your saddle and what holds position but angled up is uncomfortable and not good for a man... Maybe finding a 'wedge' if he has other issues but IMO for a majority it's not a trend but a shit position or very poor saddle choice... I use a Dash saddle and originally used the narrow version and due to well basically being too narrow I sat on it too far back incorrectly and found myself angling the saddle down. I have since gone to their standard width saddle and it is horizontal and I sit on the nose correct position for the saddle.

Glad you said that, retul put me on my ism racing saddle at a 3degree downward tilt

This sounds cool. Can I talk you in to designing a saddle for me?

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

Im trying to get it to market as its been a game changer for me.
But having read through 30 pages of patent details for the selle smp saddles I've given up!

Ive gotta tilt my saddle slightly foward on my trainer bike . If not my junk falls asleep. Sucks because It causes discomfort on my shoulders after a while. Ive also noticed my left inner thigh is starting to rub the nose a bit . I may have to try and turn my saddle clock wise a bit. No issues with my race bike with the exact same setup less seat angle.

probably shouldn't be riding aero on the turbo. does you no good.

So I ride the SMP Evolution. Been on my road bike for 3 years and I just moved it to my TT bike. This is the only saddle I've been on out of a longish list that doesn't press against my inner thigh skin, my adductors, or my hamstrings, has desired low bulk between the legs, and does not pinch my soft tissue. And that's likely as good as I'm going to get. But it is a long saddle and interfers with standover on the bike, unless I remove my bento. SMP's T3/TT3 saddle is, in my opinion, overly padded. It seems they've totally packed out the shell curvature that I like and created something that feels bulky and is pinchy. I think a shorter-nosed Evolution would be perfect, but it seems I must be a party of 1 because most saddles are wider and have loads of padding on them. If I could design my own saddle...

Serious question for the group at large: why aren't saddles heat-moldable like hockey skates, ski boots, snowboard boots, etc are? I don't know about undercarriages, but my feet have loved taking advantage of that.

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To breathe, to feel, to know I'm alive.

No idea. I haven't really ever asked him about it or thought about it. I know he feels like he had some limitations with his shoulders given his former time as a wrestler.

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I was merely asking from the standpoint that so many people on this forum say that rotating their hips more forward tends to alleviate low back pain. This was definitely true for me although it also required a slightly nose down saddle LOL.

some of you guys have seen this chart:



it's where you all are, and where the pros are. note the pro men have a much more tightly defined slope. the person who's red square is the longest/lowest is matt. this, as of a couple of years ago. blue diamonds that are even further out there are of other slowtwitchers who've had good success in extremely aero positions, like kiley.

it isn't so much the lowness that gets your low back. it's the length. when your upper arm ceases to be perpendicular to the weight it's supporting (your upper body) the duty to hold up that weight begins to transfer to the low back, the spinal erectors, rather than having the upper body's weight rest, skeletally, on the aerobar pads.

i have no idea if this explains matt hanson's low back. i've never spoken to him about it. (i don't know if he ever did have low back pain; i'm just stipulating to the comments here verbatim.) but just, in general, the solution to low back pain is more often pulling the armrests back. in fact, it's often pulling the armrests back and lowering the rider rather than raising him. or her! do you remember SLOgoing's before and after "not diggin' it" fit videos?

as to the downsloping of the saddle, jim@ERO's right. ISM says its rails should be level and that means the saddle's nose is downsloping. there are two elements to this to pay attention to (don't make it harder than it should be):

1. when you start to slide off the front of the saddle, it's sloping down too much. if you have to tilt the bars up, using the bars to keep you from sliding forward, that's too much. you don't want your pedal stroke to both propel you forward and propel your trunk backward onto the saddle.

2. this is easily determined aboard a fit bike that has an easily adjustable saddle angle tilting adjustment. the Purely Custom fit bike has this. Also any fit bike outfitted with a SwitchIt. it takes, literally, fewer than 5sec for a rider to stop pedaling a fit bike, raise the trunk off the saddle, perform a saddle tilt adjust, start pedaling again. "sweetheart, is that better?" or (if i'm fitting a woman), "ma'am, is that better?" it's a matter of comfort (is your soft tissue happier?); or power (can my pelvis rotate? can my legs clear the flanges?); and are you sliding off the front of the saddle? no? then we're not angled down too much.

some of the pure TTers here have a more obtuse shoulder angle than i think is appropriate for triathletes. i have views on that, and i'm happy to have that discussion, but, if someone complains of low back pain 60 miles into an IM bike ride, that's nothing a pure TTer is likely to face. so, while i'm happy to have that shoulder angle discussion with a pure TTer, that's a different athlete and a different sport.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

ISM always stated that rails should be level or slightly pointed down.
I like an ISM slightly pointed down and I usually run my road bike saddle level or just ever so slightly pointed up.

I have never felt like I was sliding forward on the ISM on aerobars.

can you describe the process by which retul did that?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

How come? I make more power for some reason when aero. The only time I’m up is during recovery valleys to get the blood flowing down there. According to TR the more you can be in the drops the better.

I cannot dispute any of what you said in that response however I would also think that not rotating your hips forward and riding in a position that puts a large arch in your back especially your lower back stress is it over a longer period of time. Getting a saddle that allows you to rotate your hips forward getting you flatter lower in your back will alleviate some of that.IMO.

In addition to that, there's the case to be made that you should train in the position you race. Maybe not *all* the time, but at least some large percentage of the time. If you're not comfortable enough to train in that position, that might be a signal to maybe re-consider if that position is really optimal for race day.

not too much to tell really. I came in with my p2 i had been using for years with the arione saddle. Unbeknownst to me, the arione over time had tilted down slightly to about 5degrees. Even though i was changing bikes, he put it back to level to see it how it felt, and my gosh i couldnt ride a level arione saddle for more than a minute.
I bought a trek sc and his Muve bike had an ism racing saddle on it. I felt like i could get forward nicely, keep hips open with a 3 degree tilt. Wether that is ideal or not or 'in the green' of retul i dont know. We played around with it a bit.
below is me testing out a giro helmet, i was curious to see how it felt/looked. I had just got the bike back from installing di2, and despite the seat being marked, i noticed it looked high and have since dropped the height a bit. Im naturally a toe pointer and tend to 'pull' the back end of the pedal stroke exposing my heels a bit to those behind, but pics like the below showed i was high on the seat.

Same with my P3. I set it up with 5 degrees nose down and can ride it like that all day with no back or undercarriage issues. I use the Arione VSX with the deep channel which provides relief to prevent numbness.